If I Can Be Serious For A Moment 10.15.09: Serious Round Table, Episode 2

Hey yo. Welcome back to If I Can Be Serious for a Moment, your weekly dose of intelligent wrestling discourse with me, Chris Lansdell. Having spent the last two weeks looking at Randy Orton and John Cena from different angles, we’re going to take a small detour this week and bring you the second installment of the Serious Round Table. Despite only managing to round up two fellow 411 writers, I think we got a nice assortment of ideas and opinions. We’ll bring those to you right after the

Lansdell: Welcome to the second installment of the Serious Round Table. With me again for this episode, the Encyclopaedia Oceanica of 411mania, Mathew Sforcina!
Sforcina: Hello all!
Lansdell: And of course, the moderator to end all moderators, our ECW recapper, Michael Bauer!
Bauer: What’s up?

Finally…The Rock MIGHT COME BACK to WWE!

Lansdell: Well, I figure we should start with the 95 mile an hour fast ball/bouncer: Is The Rock going to wrestle again in WWE?
Lansdell: Bauer?
Bauer: You have a better chance of not seeing HHH/Orton/Cena main event Raw before the draft than that happening.
Sforcina: I’m not so sure that’s true there Mike.
Bauer: Seriously, it is definitely not going to happen.
Lansdell: So you think the appearance on Smackdown, the comment about guest hosting Raw, the appearance for his uncle’s promotion and the Cena rumours are all coincidence?
Bauer: Cena has been talking smack about the Rock and a match for a little whole now. Sure, Rock made an appearence on Smackdown, but that was a special show. Remember, he also came on Raw to hype Trump vs. McMahon. And there was no talk about him coming back then.
Lansdell: No, but this time there are a lot of factors combining. I happen to agree that he won’t be back full-time, but Sforcina I sense you think there’s a chance he’ll be back at least once?
Sforcina: Look, I think it’s unlikely, but given that WWE is now PG, given Rock’s new found career as Disney Leading Man, it’s now ok for him to acknowledge his wrestling past. Now if the stars align just so and a Disney movie is coming out and he has a break of a month or two before a WM, it’s now a very outside chance that’s plausable. I don’t think it WILL, but it’s possible. Unless there’s a prolonged SAG strike, in which case all bets are off.
Lansdell: That’s my thinking. Vince smells money, and there’s no doubt Cena-Rock would be the biggest match since Hogan-Andre. The thing is, will The Rock go backwards? Is the potential to make millions worth the risk, however minor? It’s an intriguing concept. So Bauer, can you see him hosting Raw?
Bauer: I can see him hosting Raw to promote whatever he wants. That seems like a no brainer. But if he does, I can’t see him stepping in the ring like Trish did.
Lansdell: I would think that’s unlikely too, even Vince doesn’t hate money that much. BUT…if he does host, what happens with Cena? Does that suggest that he might lose to Orton at Bragging Rights, Sforcina?
Sforcina: If anything it makes it more likely Cena wins. The two need to have a face to face confrontation at some point long before the WM the match is held at, so that they have stock footage of the two face to face on which to sell it.
Bauer: I tend to agree with Matt there. Rock coming on the show that soon can possibly set up Cena/Rock and still leave plenty of time for Cena to drop the title again. Plus, let’s not forget. If Cena doesn’t win the title, he goes to Smackdown and can’t interact with the Raw guest host.
Sforcina: What will probably happen, planned match or not, Rock will guest host on the first Raw of 2010, and he’ll book a main event of say Orton/Jericho/Show V Cena/DX and then help clear the ring at the end of the night, leaving Raw to end on him and Cena standing face to face.
Bauer: Ugh, not the match I want to see when 2010 starts.
Sforcina: Well, I don’t think Legacy will still be around, and Rock needs to beat off some bad guys.
Lansdell: Hilarious double entendre aside, I’m going the opposite way. I figure that moving Cena to the Blue Brand not only freshens both main event scenes, it also moves him away from Rock in the event that it’s not Mania THIS year for that match. Which, with Taker likely to retire, is probably a good idea.
Sforcina: Then why did you move over Batista?
Lansdell: To turn heel. Only Cena has been a face longer.
Sforcina: Uh, Taker might disagree with you there.
Bauer: So Raw’s main event becomes HHH, Michaels, Orton, and whoever the WWE expects us to back?
Lansdell: MVP, Henry, Swagger…and Taker has been heel between 2005 and now, hasn’t he?
Sforcina: Well, maybe they’ll pull a fast one and have Cena win the tag belts his first night on SD so he can come back to both shows.
Bauer: Mark Henry should be nowhere near a main event. Look what happened at the Royal Rumble.
Sforcina: Heel Mark Henry should be nowhere near a main event. Face Mark Henry is allowed to skirt with it.
Bauer: True, but you need a heel. Which makes Swagger, which I can’t buy either.
Sforcina: And Taker’s a good guy since that brief flirtation with heeldom with Heyman.

Dead Man Walking…Off Into The Sunset

Lansdell: If we can swing back to Taker for a moment…how much will his eventual retirement hurt or help WWE?
Bauer: It has to help the WWE. Do you think Punk would ever have had his momentum killed if Taker wasn’t around to never lose clean?
Sforcina: But with Taker gone you lose a major star, a lot of merch, and one of the bigger WM drawcards you have.
Lansdell: Does Taker really still shift merch? I mean is he anywhere near Cena, Rey, DX?
Bauer: Undertaker only has his WM streak though. If that is gone, he has nothing to still compete for. And last time I checked, Jeff Hardy still sells like hotcakes, so no, they don’t lose his merch.
Sforcina: I was under the impression that Taker moves a solid amount, albeit not the Cena/Jeff level. But I agree that Taker should be winding down, and that the Punk thing was stupid, but I think losing him will cause a change in the WWE. Maybe for the better, maybe for the worse.
Bauer: Actually, a quick look at he Top 20 items has no merchandise of the Dead Man.
Lansdell: I’m not a fan of the “buried” talk around HHH and Taker and their treatment of younger or newer talent, but with him gone does the young talent have an easier time, or a harder one? He doesn’t lose clean to many, but he DOES put people over while beating them.
Bauer: Well, not every person looks that good when losing like Legacy did with DX. I don’t think Punk was helped at all by losing in 10 minutes to the Taker in the opening match of Hell in a Cell. Overall, I would think it would be easier for the next wave of talent after the current “future” of the WWE is on top.
Sforcina: Of course, it’s not just in front of the camera that will change. Unless he takes an Agent’s postition, Taker’s retirement is going to TOTALLY change the dynamics of the WWE backstage enviroment. It’ll be interesting to see what happens then.
Lansdell: Very true. There is no doubt though that Taker is one of the most visible WWE stars. If you talk to someone who was a fan 10n years ago, they tend to say “Oh I used to watch that, does Undertaker/Rock/Stone Cold still wrestle?” With him gone, they lose that last link to their glory days.
Sforcina: And unless the guy who beats him is another character driven-monster, you’ll lose any chance of hooking people to see the guy who beat Taker. If, say Ted DiBiase retires Taker, I think most casual fans will think that’s silly. That guy did it?
Bauer: Honestly, more people have asked me about Brock Lesnar’s WWE experience because of UFC. And these were WWE fans back in the day.
Sforcina: Ah, UFC. The Modern Day Pro Wrestling.
Lansdell: Is this Taker’s last hurrah?
Bauer: I have to believe it is, but I think he loses the title before his one last Wrestlemania.
Sforcina: This is probably his last run as a full time compeditor. I think WM26 will end his run, but WM27 will be his final match. 20 years later and such.
Lansdell: On that note, does Taker retain at Bragging Rights, and if not who wins?
Sforcina: Punk pins Rey a second before Batista pins Taker, giving Punk his title back and giving Batista a reason to destroy Rey, assuming he’s turning heel.
Lansdell: Bauer?
Bauer: This is tricky, because you have to think about the Smackdown vs Raw main event. I think CM Punk takes back the title and maybe opens up a feud with him and Mysterio.
Lansdell: OK, to finish off the Taker topic…let’s assume that Sforcina is right, and that Taker’s last match as a regular competitor is at WM 26, and he returns for a goodbye at 27. Who does he face each time, and does anyone beat him?
Sforcina: 26 he’d face someone like Dolph Ziggler or Miz, a mid-card heel he can defeat on the undercard. He is then attacked and ‘retired’ by some slimy heel (like, say, Jericho), who spends a year crowing over it and then fights Taker at 27 and I don’t know who would win that one.
Lansdell: And Bauer?
Bauer: I think that the last match he has will be the one loses. So I say he wins at Wrestlemania 26, loses at 27.
Lansdell: Against?
Bauer: I hoenstly can’t imagine, thinking of current storylines. Probably someone more established than Mat has in mind or maybe some memeber of Legacy wins this year. I’d have to say he loses to someone not as established. Yes, I’m vague, but only because I don’t have an hour to think it over.
Sforcina: I just don’t see the WWE risk putting a young guy over for the Streak only for him to pull a Lesnar.
Bauer: Well, I have to take he 2 year scenario here. In my mind, he loses this year to CM Punk.
Lansdell: I’m torn. I’ve always thought his last match should be against Kane, but if we’re going off the WM27 assumption, I don’t like that. I want to see Taker-Cena this year, if for no other reason than it would drive the internet beserk. ESPECIALLY if it leaks that it’s his last match. As for the comeback…it has to be someone who can cut promos that will tempt him back. Someone with history. Randy Orton.
Sforcina: I can see Orton being The Guy.
Lansdell: Especially if he punts Taker at some point.
Sforcina: A proper one, not a Cena Special.

The Tail End For Sting?

Lansdell: Moving to TNA briefly…is Sting going to retire after Bound for Glory?
Sforcina: I want to say yes, but since Russo is booking, I expect Sting to win here then lose a double or nothing match at the next PPV, Sting’s Title And Career V AJ’s Career and Video Game Collection.
Bauer: It sure looks like that is what they are setting up. Sting is one of those guys I never thought would have come back before, but sure enough he did. Sting needs to step aside sooner or later and with the recent pushing of people like Styles and Red, I think TNA and Sting are finally realizing it.
Lansdell: Sting has a streak of winning the title at Bound for Glory, and is facing one of the hottest “young” names in the business this year. Doesn’t this feel a bit like Undertaker to you Bauer?
Bauer: It does, but unlike the Undertaker, Sting knows when to put people over. That has always been the biggest difference between the two. Sting doesn’t bury people, no pun intended.
Lansdell: What I was really getting at with the first question was, will he retire, or go to WWE for a year?
Bauer: There is no way Sting goes to the WWE. Even the Stinger said it himself. You have a better chance of The Rock returning.
Lansdell: Wasn’t that before PG?
Sforcina: The closest you’ll get is a Bret Hart style HOF Induction/DVD.
Lansdell: So you think he’d accept a place in the HOF, and not pull a Sammartino?
Sforcina: He might. It wouldn’t be for a couple of years, but unlike Bruno I think Sting cares about his fans enough to agree to work on a DVD, and a HOF induction would go along with that.
Bauer: I agree. Sting has enough respect for the business to do this. And considering there is really no independent place that has a Hall of Fame, this is the most logical result.
Lansdell: So who inducts him?
Sforcina: Flair.
Bauer: Flair by a mile.
Sforcina: Given Warrior’s insane and Luger’s not suitable.
Bauer: Nobody else should even be in the conversation. Those two fought the last match in WCW history. Sting has never had as great of a rival as Flair.
Lansdell: Excellent, we all agree.
Sforcina: Good to see.

Ranting Over Rating

Lansdell: Now, the penultimate topic. Is WWE’s PG rating really a big deal, or should the quality of the content be the issue?
Bauer: I think the PG is great for bringing in the younger fans, but for old school people like me, I haven’t been liking it as much. The really old school might not like it, but that’s due to too much flipping.
Lansdell: But can they put on a quality show without being risqué?
Sforcina: The rating is a symptom of the disease, albeit a clear, obvious one. I think most people understand the idea that WWE is trying to bring in the kids again, like they did in the 80’s and early 90’s, so that when they become cynical teenagers in a few years we can redo Attitude. But you can do that without moving the belt around, or locking in PPV ideas ad such. And sure they can put on a good show without being risque. You just have to think like a booker, not like a Hollywood writer.
Bauer: I think the match quality has been better than average when comparing it to other years, but the risque business is what made the WWE larger than life.
Lansdell: And that, to me, is the crux of the issue. The way they are working now, I don’t think it would be good with an R rating. I’ve long held the belief that you do NOT have to sacrifice good wrestling to be a sports entertainment show, and WWE has rarely followed that philosophy.
Sforcina: Or vice versa, for that matter.
Bauer: Yes, but you don’t need to be PG to entertain.
Lansdell: You make an excellen t point though Bauer. WWE got big when it shocked people, and it’s given up on that.
Sforcina: Because you eventually run out of shock tactics.
Bauer: Not if you re-fresh the scene with new talent.
Sforcina: At some point people stop getting shocked, at which point you either go overboard trying to top yourself or pull back for a while.
Lansdell: Are the fans using the ratings change as a scapegoat?
Sforcina: Some are. A lot of fans I think are smart enough to realise that the rating isn’t the real issue, but sure, some are scapegoating it.
Bauer: The ratings are the worst indicator ever to determine success. I don’t remember who said it, but there are more people watching television now than during the height of the Monday Night War. So the ratings being lower now can equal the same number of people.
Lansdell: This is very true. When Impact has a good show, the rating is often low because the show before was crap and nobody wants to watch the next week. It takes a week for a good show to affect ratings.
Sforcina: Well, wrestling ratings overall, across the entire run of TV history, have been fairly constant as a percentage. It’s just no-one tried them in prime time before the MNW, at which point it became abnoramlly high. And yet, ratings is what TNA is chasing, not PPV buys or merch sales or anything.
Lansdell: Fans need to understand that the Monday Night Wars period was an anomaly, not the norm.
Bauer: And the other thing is that the WWE can’t attempt to match ratings with Monday Night Football. Especially not with every fan eatching Green Bay vs. Minnesota. And especially not tonight with New York being on ESPN.
Sforcina: And maybe remembering that WWE is global now, so maybe if you stop worrying about the ratings for one country and focus on just making the show great, but that’s a pipe dream…
Lansdell: Plus internet streams, PVRs, watching with friends…all these hurt ratings. You’ll never again see wrestling break a 5 in my lifetime,
Bauer: Ah yes, forgot about the DVR taping.

Lansdell: So, imagine you own TNA. What can you do to make it competitive?
Sforcina: Hire a big guy to stand behind Russo with a big stick and tell him to hit Russo if Russo comes up with anything stupid.
Bauer: Is there a maximum to the number of things I can do?
Lansdell: Let’s say three things. Realistic things, not “Hire HHH, Cena and HBK”
Sforcina: Seriously, the main thing would be to shift the focus of the company into selling PPVs. Make the company revolve around them, not the TV show. And that, hopefully, would lead to a knock on effect that would help the entire company.
Bauer: First, fire Russo and every loyalist he has, allowing me to bring back Cornette. Second, I would actually maintain the pushes for Styles, Joe, Red, Daniels, etc… And lastly, I would stop hiring everyone the WWE lets go.
The only thing I’ll add on is that I liked the midcard shuffle by letting people go to bring in different guys. Now, they ned to do that with Nash and company going away.
Lansdell: Step 1: Change the philosophy. If you are going to push the TV show, stop giving away big matches and gimmick matches with no promotion or build. Step 2: If you must have older guys, make them older guys who aren’t useless and allergic to putting people over.
Bauer: cough::Nash::cough
Lansdell: Step 3: Move opposite SmackDown.
Bauer: Seriously? You would take thme off of Thursday nights why?
Sforcina: Yeah, Step 3 sounds kinda crazy to me.
Lansdell: Because they are on a network with wider reach, and by putting them in direct competition with WWE they can build some hype, stimulate some competition and be a TRUE alternative. Going against Raw is Suicide, and going against ECW proves nothing. An ad campaign showcasing what TNA has that WWE doesn’t would turn some heads
Bauer: Yeah, but people might actually skip ECW to watch Impact. I wouldn’t skip Smackdown, if I was ever home, to watch TNA.
Lansdell: They already come very close to the ECW rating though.
Sforcina: Of course, they’re profitable now, so they won’t change a thing.
Bauer: What exactly does TNA have that WWE doesn’t? Besides an actual good Women’s Division and the awesome combo of Styles and Joe.
Sforcina: Tara.
Lansdell: You know what got me into TNA? They ran a PPV for a penny showcasing the best of TNA. The athleticism, the quality wrestling, the focus on tag teams. It was aimed at the things that WWE has not done well in years. They could do something similar again, and it would attract some disillusioned people IF they promoted it.
Bauer: Sure, so could Ring of Honor, but those same people don’t care that Ring of Honor is on television, it’s not the WWE.
Sforcina: Would you do this on PPV or would you use one of the specials they have with Spike?
Lansdell: Either way works. And the comparison with RoH is not really a fair one, since most people have Spike in their homes. The point is that people are switching off WWE and NOT switching on to TNA. THOSE are the fans they should be chasing.
Sforcina: I thought those fans were meant to be switching to UFC?
Bauer: I think the problem is that TNA’s Television isn’t much better than WWE’s most weeks.
Lansdell: The way I see it, TNA’s rating has not changed significantly no matter what they’ve tried. Moving to Friday won’t hurt them in all likelihood, but it MIGHT help them if they market it right. What do they have to lose?
Sforcina: The percentage of their fans that are WWE and TNA fans.
Bauer: Which was the point I was making earlier.
Lansdell: You may well be right, which is probably why I’m not the CEO of a major company.

How Can You Bring Back A Broken Hart?

OK, to the final question then…is Bret Hart coming back?
Sforcina: To WWE? Perhaps. To TV? No.
Bauer: To do what? He can’t wrestle anymore and I don’t think he is really suited to be an on-air authority type person.
Sforcina: Maybe he’ll take the Agent’s job he was suppost to transition to after 3 years.
Lansdell: OK, three differing opinions then. Tremendous. I think he’ll do a short stint on air, obviously on SmackDown, and stay well away from HBK because he’s still sulking. And I think it will be awful.
Sforcina: Well, hope DX wins the Tag titles then, then all he’ll have left is ECW.
Bauer: Bret’s skill was always in his ring work and with that gone, I agree with you.
Lansdell: Wouldn’t it be a terrible waste to bring in Bret Hart and never put him on air though? He may not have been the draw that some of his contemporaries are/were, but he’s still a name
Sforcina: A name that most fans now equate to Montreal and that’s it. The best thing to do? Hire him to fly around the world as a WWE Ambasador.
Bauer: I can’t see Bret coming back to work for Vince if he wasn’t doing something significant.
Lansdell: Bauer, can you see him in a trainer role?
Bauer: A trainer role I could definitely see. Bret has more knowledge than most ever would hope to attain.
Sforcina: If they ever set up that WWE Global Domination plan, after Vince dies, Bret would be a great choice to go around and set each training camp up.
Lansdell: Do you think he will ever grow up and work with Shawn in any way?
Sforcina: God no.
Bauer: I was recently at an autograph signing with him and he still refuses to sign the double pack of him and Shawn. Granted, it says Montreal Screwjob on it.
Lansdell: Having said that, would you have thought that he would ever even consider it if you had been asked this last year?
Sforcina: I see your point, and while it’s still a snowball’s chance in hell, at least this year the snowball has a little baseball cap on.
Lansdell: Bauer?
Bauer: I’m not sure. Bret supposedly doesn’t like many people, but alot of it seems to be smoke and mirrors. Shawn is a different story though. I just can’t see them ever being on the same page.
Sforcina: Although I’m sure there will now be 50 comments in this about how Montreal is a work.

Wish Me Love A Wishing Well

Lansdell: OK, last question: What’s one thing that will never happen in pro wrestling that you would LOVE to see?
Sforcina: Tara: TNA World Champion.
Bauer: How did I see that coming?
Lansdell: I call shenanigans, Sforcina. Russo is booking. It could happen.
Sforcina: Curses! All right…
Lansdell: Anyone?
Bauer: I’m going to say Colt Cabana and CM Punk teaming up again.
Sforcina: WWE hires Josh Whedon, Diablo Cody and Bruce Campbell to write Raw, SD and ECW respectivly.
Lansdell: I’m a little easier to please. I want to see CM Punk beat HHH at Mania for the title…with a Pepsi Plunge.
Bauer: Hell, HHH has put over Punk before.
Lansdell: Sure, but that would be putting him over on a whole new level
Sforcina: With a move Punk doesn’t use anymore since he wants to continue walking.
Lansdell: As a one-off, for a match of that caliber? He’d do it. That. or Savage coming down to the ring to guest host Raw with Stephanie on his arm
Bauer: Has he future guest host for November 2 been passing you anything?
Sforcina: Now THAT I’d like to see.
Lansdell: On that note, I’d like to thank my guests this week for their ever-insightful contributions
Sforcina: You’re quite welcome.
Bauer: Anytime Chris. Now back to coming up with mind numbing Top 5 topics.

Moment over. TWITTER BREAK!

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Well that’s the column folks. I had hoped to include a reader on this Round Table, but by the time I got a reply on Twitter we were halfway through. Want a chance to appear in a future Serious Round Table, or any other Lansdell column? Click the link above to follow me on Twitter! Next week I’m working on wrestling and social media. Stay Cool, Rock Hard.

Lansdellicious – Out.