Five-Star Conversation 10.27.09: Wrapping Up Bragging Rights (SPOILERS INCLUDED)

Black women freakin rule. I mean this with all my heart.

COMMENTPALOOZA!
I’d like to see most of that happen but the fact is, WWE doesn’t have the balls to turn big stars heel these days. Batista turning heel would be a great way to refresh his character and feuds, and it’s long overdue. It makes perfect sense from a booking/storyline point of view. On the flip side, he just had a DVD release that WWE will want to sell so that’s going to overcome logic in this situation and he’s going to remain the same boring Dave we’ve been watching (or grabbing a snack, smoking a cig, or taking a piss break during) for the last several years.
Posted By: Guest#5112

Your cynicism is well earned, 5112, but it seems as if the trigger has been pulled on the Batista heel turn. I can definitely see what you mean about McMahonagement’s reticence to turn one of their major stars. Before Chris Jericho’s stellar heel turn, I think the last real turn we saw was The Big Show, unless you want to count MVP or Mark Henry, but those seemed to be turns facilitated by virtue of the Draft outcome. Despite thegun‘s “rearranging of the toys on the shelf” theory, it seems to me there was a real attempt to shake things up and re-establish brand-specific personalities among its’ shows.

Matt Hardy was is an honorable mention for Best Intended Turn, when, it seemed to me that endeavor was twofold: 1) To allow Matt the opportunity to score a big time heel rub from his brother (that did not sound right…), and 2) to send a message to Christian, and any other potential TNA prodigals about how loyalty is rewarded in WWE. The fact that it didn’t work out is one of wrestling’s little oddities, because, although having come up from their own trampoline backyard federation together to a high-profile blow-off at WrestleMania, The Hardys have yet to really have the quality blow-away program you’d think would be cake for them to pull off.

And, no, I don’t count John Morrison’s face turn as being too terribly monumental, because, at the time, he was much lower on the card and has only since, as a result of the turn, seen his own career climb the ranks. That rising stock also owes to a face-starved roster on SmackDown! as the months rolled on, considering we lost Jeff Hardy, Rey “El Pollo Loco” Mysterio got to sit out for a month and The Undertaker still recovering from surgery. McMahonagement scrambled to smooth out their lop-sided roster and, for all intents and purposes, did a fine job of reshuffling at the time.

However, even with Jeff leaving, returning Matt Hardy to face status (we can debate whether or not McMahonagement originally intended for Matt to fit into the considerable shoes left by his brother at the top of the card), Taker and Mysterio returning and Morrison’s star on the rise, that list, including Batista, greatly outweighs Friday night’s heels, CM Punk, Jericho, who is pretty much playing the role of spackle, being used where he best holds things together and Dolph Ziggler, who is still in the growing phase, although displays a surprising wealth of promise. Edge is still out without a return date on the horizon and, as we saw last night, Kane can rise up and fill a heel role like the competent veteran he is, but I really have to think his days at the top of the card are behind him.

Thus, it makes perfect sense for Batista to have turned, especially now we can have two of Vince’s favorite stories, former friends feuding and David versus Goliath in one high profile program. Mysterio is so over, and, perhaps most importantly, with the target demographic, he stands only to become more beloved and this sets off Batista’s turn with a bang. The size differential writes another chapter in Mysterio’s book of being the perennial underdog and I’m curious to see what kind of chemistry is going to evolve from them this time around. Plus, this allows a hot program for two of McMahonagement’s favorite characters while keeping them away from The World Title, allowing for that feud to play out (for the sake of posterity, hopefully in Punk’s favor).

And, as you said, and as we all are painfully aware, Batista was in dire need of an image shake-up. I, like most everyone, had high apple pie in the sky hopes for him when he left Evolution, because he seemed like the thinking man’s strongman, a cool customer until provoked and then WATCH OUT! But nothing more of any real consequences seemed to, pardon the pun, evolve from him character-wise and he became flat and static in that regard. I’m not saying the guy doesn’t work hard, he clearly does. I’m not saying he’s an incompetent worker, his series against Taker alone were impressive, and the Punjabi Prison match against Khali, of all people, was rife with drama, even though we all knew Big Dave was walking victorious. Sometimes, in the ring and in life, we just need a change and I think this particular change bodes very well for Batista himself, we, the fans, and the entire brand as a whole.

While Punk winning would make sense. I don’t think it’s a guarantee to happen. But if it were to happen I would use Batista to have it done.

With response to Justin’s post, I’m not sure many would be thrilled at the prospect of Batista main eventing (or being near the main event of) Mania. Even if he does turn heel. Lets just feed Rey to him and be done with it for mania. It would provide a great match plus let others not called Cena or hhh or orton get a shot at the world titles.
Posted By: Heel

Wow, that was a lot to digest. I think when considering possible booking options, at least in terms of WWE, the best rule of thumb is to keep it simple, especially now that we’re marketing to children, despite Vince’s recent claims of running a more sophisticated product. I can see what he means by that claim, the fact that they’re not displaying barbed wire and boobies akimbo and leaning up the language anymore, but just because you’re not using paper cups anymore doesn’t mean you’re still not drinking Kool-Aid (and I don’t mean the Paul Heyman kind!).

At any rate, although Punk acquiring a hired gun/bodyguard (this I can especially see on his quest to regain and retain The WT), I can see further that whomever he acquisitions, he actually becomes more of a Straight-Edge disciple (obviously not Ed Leslie). Personally I think this would be a great opportunity to elevate Mike Knox. He’s big and scary and creepy and I can totally buy him not needing intoxicants to put him down his own particular path of enlightenment (Had we continued on in Morrison’s case as the esoteric philosopher from The Palace of Wisdom, this could have set up some interesting interaction, as well, but oh, well…).

There could also be some interesting interaction between Punk and Knox where Knox is going on in his creepspeak and, toward the end of their run together, we split them up as Punk becomes increasingly, shall we say, concerned that just because one is substance-free, it doesn’t mean they’re playing with a full deck, although that would have to be played with caution, because we don’t want to have Punk 1) be afraid of Knox and 2) give the implication that his own faith in his philosophy has any cracks in the foundation. I’m just trying to take your idea and run with it.

It just seems like a step down for Batista to be someone else’s muscle. He’s a former, multi-time world champion with pride to spare as a face; now that he’s a heel, I can only expect to see that selfulness become more pronounced. It was one thing to be cast in the role of Triple H’s patsy and back-up when he was still a rookie, but considering his history and what he’s managed to accomplish on his own in the interim, I just don’t see that making a lot of sense.

Besides, that seems to me to be booking a little backwards. We’ve seen Mysterio, through Batista’s eyes, cost him The WT, and so now, on his list of priorities, he wipes out the immediate little fly buzzing around his face and annoying him (Mysterio), then he really digs in and sets his sights for the grand prize, which the belt. Besides, and a heel wouldn’t admit this, but if he waits around long enough, Punk might actually manage to score the belt from Taker, and I’d think Batista would view Punk as an easier kill than The Dead Man.

Your view also relies upon the availability for Edge to return and go in just a couple of months, and it seems as if that’s not going to be a possibility, unfortunately. Personally, I’m still somewhat married to the notion that there’s a good possibility that Edge and Jericho will pick up where we left off when Jericho belittled Edge for having become injured, thus facilitating an Edge face turn, who would benefit from a change as much as Batista, but that turn could have been more holistically-considered to suit the concurrent landscape. A lot can happen between now and the next time we see Edge suited up for action, so we’ll see, although I’d love to see that program.

Loved the column, but i sense a bit of contradiction. You say Punk isn’t ready for a rub which a win over taker at HIAC would bring. Yet you pick Dibiase as the successor to Cena in terms of Orton’s challenger. Dibiase is ready for a rub and not Punk? I can see it happening from a storyline point of view but it’s too soon. Let Dibiase break out on his own, get a few potshots at the Miz. People may mention Orton v HHH but back then, Orton had just come off as the longest reigning IC champion in a number of years. Then he transitioned to Benoit and HHH. Dibiase has done jack squat in singles competition. And to say he earns a shot at Orton’s title, is just premature.

@ Geoff – As much as I enjoy Jerishow, I think in order for the tag teams to really get to shine, the titles need to be un-unified (or is it de-unified?). On Raw, you have DX, Legacy, MVP/Henry, and your random teams. SD has the Harts, Cryme Tyme, Jerishow (Show needs to be moved to SD only) and the Random duo or ecw guest tag teams like Zekeslov. I think some of the younger/newer duos could use the title rub.
Posted By: Big Fat Fag

Don’t get me wrong, Heel, I completely agree with you! However, I’m trying to look at it from McMahonagement’s point of view because there are apparently a lot of people behind the curtain who see something in DiBiase we haven’t yet seen, or, at least, of which are only beginning to see signs, such as last Monday when he started to dare bowing up to Orton. It reeked of tease to gauge audience response, if they think they’re on the right track in DiBiase’s regard (not that that’s necessarily ever stopped them in the past, but…).

I’m of the opinion that, once Orton became focused on Cena, DiBiase & Rhodes have managed to really come out of their shells and start to forge ring identities of their own, even if their characters (spot the difference, there!) are still somewhat flat and one-dimensional. And, hate it if you like, deny it if you will, but I think the strides we’ve seen from DiBiase & Rhodes owe a lot to having worked with HHH & HBK.

Since we’ve been on the topic, it bears mentioning here, too, McMahonagement needs to be wary with these two kids, because they could stand to commit the same error that has Batista in the spot he’s in now – while, yes, you can get someone over by having them turn on an unfair ally who is established and hated already, but what tools does that fledgling have once that program completes? You can give a shiny new speed boat all the momentum in the world, but if there’s holes in the hull, it’s still gonna sink once the initial inertia poops out.

Back to Punk, though, just to clarify, what I was attempting to describe with respect to him not being ready to receive the Brock rub from Taker in The Cell is just that…The Cell is Taker’s match and for someone to go over him “clean” (in quotation marks, because, although everything is legal, is anything really clean, but you get my drift) in that environment is a quality of building rub I’m not sure we’ll see again, and because of the way things went down with Brock. You simply can’t hand out too many such wins or the whole scenario becomes tainted. Of course one could say having three such matches on the same card named after the match itself helps to taint the scenario as well and I’d agree with you.

However, although it should be, because, again, that’s been the traditional point of a match of this magnitude (and sometimes traditions are set in place with good reason), the match between Punk and Taker was not this feud’s blow-off and there’s still a lot of mileage in this tank, less so, though, after last Friday, when the story has started to become more about Vince and Teddy’s power struggle (that I don’t really understand to begin with) and this bizarre relationship Teddy has with The Undertaker.

I somehow get the feeling we’re seeing the annual Uncle Vinnie’s Sports Entertainment Circus match beginning to take shape for WrestleMania. My long shot prediction (no pun intended) is that Vince breathes down Teddy’s neck, threatening him with his job, forcing him to book matches that ultimately cost Taker the belt (in Punk’s favor, but we’ll get back to that in a second), thus, Vince thinks Taker is livid with Teddy who, for some reason, Vince wants to see get smeared like this:

But Taker will ultimately wise up and see the situation for what it is, empowering Teddy to stand up to Vince during the match where someone is “Umaga-ed” by Vince and is foolish enough to think he’ll be the one to end The Streak. Just a thought. By the way, I think the kid with the ball is okay.

To wrap this up, I’m hoping what we’re seeing is a similar story as we saw with MVP. When he and his attitude first showed up on SD!, he was punished into earning his ridiculous salary by being “sacrificed” to Taker & Kane. Like, a LOT. But we saw him toughen up as the angle progressed, such that when it came his time to challenge Chris Benoit for The UST, he eventually won and in convincing fashion. He took everything the champion had to throw at him and managed to rise to the occasion. Suddenly we were buying MVP as a solid mid-carder, but there was a whole thoughtful process going into making that so. I’m thinking we’re seeing the same in Punk’s regard, at least, I hope so. Punk the performer and WWE as a whole really need him to be such. This is a delicate time, I think, as Punk is being established as a legitimate main event threat. If things aren’t handled properly, he could be this fucked:

Get that shit! Yeah, buddy, that’s a good boy! I know a man and his dog who were literally in the dog house once someone had her coffee.

Isaac, I think a big reason why McMahonagement is so iffy on MVP is because of his attitude. Does anyone remember SmackDown!’s short-lived backstage correspondent, Anastacia Rose? This is at least a year or so ago. I perked up when I saw her on SD! because I’d literally just seen her at karaoke a couple weeks prior (doing a damn good version of Fergie’s “London Bridge”, I’ll add). Well, as it happens, I saw her again maybe a month ago, and asked her what had happened. She was politely vague, but did confide in me that the boys make it really tough for the ladies backstage, and she named MVP in particular. I could tell she was trying to take the high road, you know, when you leave a job, you don’t want to burn a bridge running off a ration of shit once you leave, but I could tell she was getting fired up thinking about it. Take that for what you will, and I’m not meaning to suggest that MVP went to the Randy Orton School of Purse-Shitting, but combine that story with the piss-test guy story and you see an image start to form.

BFF, I really don’t know if it’s a good idea to split up The UTTTs, at least at this point in time. Having both members of JeriShow available for all shows has really been beneficial, I think, despite my qualms for the manner in which they’re utilized. What I think should be happening, though, is that some of these lesser-used members of each roster should be paired up with some semblance of an attempt to have a tag division on each brand be invented. Hell, you even have SuperStars upon which to accomplish this task if you don’t want to devote any time to the division on the main shows. That way, The UTTTs look a little more important, you’re actually using your contracted talent instead of Vince holding onto them all as he looks over at Dixie and sticks out his tongue and it doesn’t necessarily have to be “tag team du jour” for whoever’s holding the belts.

I’m glad someone else is taking notice of Jericho’s character dropping off, from the shrewd heel with the superiority complex that we grew to love/hate last year, to the vain, clueless “Heat-Getting For Dummies”-reading face-in-the-crowd heel that he’s become over the past couple months. THIS guy was World Champion a year ago?! I’m not saying the damage is irrevocable, but I really hope they pull up soon before the “Santinosedive”.

I think Punk will win back the strap in the four-way match this Sunday too. It’s certainly a rational way to keep his feud with the Undertaker going until at least Survivor Series. Punk wins back the strap by pinning somebody other than ‘Taker, or even by pinning ‘Taker as a result of, say, Batista’s offense. I’m sure they wouldn’t mind throwing Batista into the title mix as well. In any case, Punk is NOT done with the World Heavyweight Championship. I mean, how many heel title contenders does Smackdown have?
Posted By: KanyonKreist

You know, Vince McMahon, the guy who thought it was a hoot to simulate fisting the best play-by-play man to ever call a match because of the professional jealousy he’s too proud to admit to? You know, Jim Ross never really comes out and says all the shit they put him through bothers him, whether because his love for the business is so great he’ll put with it, that he doesn’t really mind or that he’s toeing the company line. In the end it’s his job and his business and I could care less, bottom line, as long as he remains at a desk calling action.

But this is as good a time as any to send out my absolute heartfelt best wishes that he gets over this third round of Bell’s Palsy sooner rather than later and gets back to doing what he loves. He seemed really excited about calling SmackDown! with Jerry Lawler and it’s a shame that didn’t get to happen for them. Still, did it seem odd that the Raw announce team should be providing commentary on SD!, considering the situation leading to Bragging Rights? Were Matt Striker and Josh Mathews (who are better anyway) busy?

Okay, to your comment, Kanyon, my friend. I was relieved someone else has seen the devolution of Jericho’s fantastic heel character. Like I said, it looks to me as if he’s having a blast playing the JeriShow brand heel (when Shaq smooched him on the forehead on Raw months ago, I thought he was gonna double over laughing!). No, I don’t think damage can ever be irreparable in the case of a veteran as smart and savvy and experienced as Jericho, but the conditions sure have to be calculated. But you know, he’s still having a hell of a run and is one of the most valuable performers in the company right now, if for simply pulling double-duty the way he’s been doing for months and being spot-on each time. But do I think we’ll ever see top heel Jericho holding gold? Never say never, but…

You know, I said earlier in response to Heel that it seems to me that DiBiase has a lot of friends behind the curtain who are willing to give him an express ride to the top with a monster face push, but it strikes me that all that support really only has to stem from one man…one McMahon. Like many corporate arenas, it only takes one mind to be made up and the rest follow out of forced loyalty. This could be the same situation. We’re certainly led to believe that quality of environment exists at Titan Tower under its’ glass ceiling, though do we know for sure?

You what was my favorite part of The Rock’s appearance was on SmackDown!’s Tenth Anniversary show? The very beginning when he looks at the provided script, laughs and throws it away asking rhetorically, “Who writes this crap…?”

I’m pleased that you dug my musings about how the Inter-Promotional tag match could have gone. I jokingly gave myself a Barry Horowitz when they changed virtually the entire SD! team on Friday, thinking, Yup, they read my column and threw their hands in the air, shouting, Goddammit, the little fag scooped us! Thus they decided to change up the team. And, yes, I know it had a lot more to do with JTG having fallen ill.

I know I’ve talked a hopeful blue streak about Punk, but I was really certain he was going to walk with the strap Sunday. At this point, there’s not a lot I can say, really, just cross my fingers and hope the right decision is made, even if that right decision isn’t what I personally think should go down. Time will tell.

I think the WWE could have gotten by with a Punk/Matt Hardy curtain-jerker (or mid-card) at HITC. We could have had a month long “avenging brother” storyline, followed by Punk defeating Hardy in a well-fought match. It might have even elevated Hardy to have a quality match against a champion in a prestigious (though not main event) setting. I think the fans would’ve supported Hardy and Punk would’ve been able to cut promos labeling Matt as an enabler to his brother.

Have a good week, Geoff.
Posted By: Angry Bear

The only thing I can really think of I terms of Matt is that McMahonagement might have not been feeling Matt as a continued main-eventer following his string of illnesses, you know, keep him mellow until such time that he’s really 100% and back in that groove when he and MVP were warring against one another for The UST. That, and, considering Jeff wasn’t just working an injury angle, that he was really leaving with the intention of coming back, but with no set timetable, it might have just been the best thing to move Punk on and away from Matt and the memory of his brother (could you imagine if “We want Jeff!” chants broke out?) and move on to Taker…? Like I said, I really don’t know.

Cena going to Smackdown just gives us the main event for WM, Cena vs Taker
Posted By: Steve

Geoff, I’m still trying to recover from the last video. Well done. Concerning Cena, I highly doubt this will happen, but for shits and giggles, what if he went to ECW? I could imagine the type of rub he could give Christian. Shelton? Sheamus? Ryder? Yoshi? Even if it’s just until the Rumble or Draft, he could help a lot of newer stars out. Once again, not realistic, but wishful thinking.
Posted By: The Great Capt. Smooth

When I wrote this last week, I was almost completely certain we’d see Cena moved to SD!. It all made perfect sense to me, and it still does. But when I got home last week after posting the column and saw the outcome of the match, when I saw how Cena was selling it, I realized how short-sighted I was in not seeing how this put such a typical heroic WWE win for the face in the final blow-off. I fell into the trap everyone else fell into last year when predicting WrestleMania – I thought with my heart instead of my head.

And, of course, you know if McMahonagement wants Cena/Taker at WrestleMania, they’ll find a way, although I can’t imagine Cena becoming a Streak casualty.

Schmoove, it’s an interesting consideration, but I really can’t see a top commodity like Cena being wasted on ECW with the hope that it might beat TNA ratings-wise. If Punk wasn’t ready for a Taker rub in The Cell, there’s no way some guy who runs around saying “Woo woo woo” is going to breathe the same air as Cena, although your heart’s in the right place! Incidentally, does it strike anyone else that this year’s crop of ECW new recruits isn’t advancing as quickly as last year’s?

I appreciate the good word, and agree to a point, but if I saw someone running down Rob Van Dam or Chris Jericho with tantamount misinformation, I’d be riled, too and might be moved to say something. Opinions are one thing, but journalistic integrity is another and I have more of an obligation to have my shit straight, so I have to accept a certain amount of that sort of thing in such instances.

If I had to pick one RAW main eventer to go to SD, I’d actually pick Orton than Cena. If Cena leaves, the only main event faces for Orton to face are either DX member, and the turning Ted Dibiase. I’m so sick of HHH/Orton, although Michaels/Orton might be a nice small change of pace.

But the main reason I’d send Orton to SD is that he needs new challengers and frankly I’m just tired of him on RAW. He bores me. At least Cena and DX mildly amuse me. Maybe they can do a trade where we get CM Punk and they get Orton.
Posted By: JLAJRC

I really think there’s still steam in the tea kettle over a Legacy blow-up and, like we said above, it seems as if Vince has his heart set on jamming a Super Soaker up DiBiase’s butt and shooting him to the moon. I just get the feeling that Vince thinks he’s been pumping a grip of pressure into that Super Soaker, when he’s really just been pumping his fist. Like I said, time will tell if we get to see the DiBiase McMahonagement seems to think they’ve got or if we just end up calling DiBiase The Diamondback (although, considering his Dad’s gimmick…).

All I’m gonna say about SD!’s main event is, compare it to Raw’s. I will agree with you that the first team was definitely not up to snuff, but that was addressed and we ended up with a better team that actually walked with the V, although thanks to JeriShow, again proving my theory from last week that they can’t beg, steal or borrow a win until they get to crunch time. And, also, as I said last week, if anyone in the undercard was benefitting by it, it would be smart booking…

The Miz/Morrison match was all there to benefit The Miz. Because SD!’s booking is smarter than that of Raw’s, Morrison could take that loss and still go out and wow a crowd the next night if he had to. The Miz, if they’re really serious about sticking with him, still needs to recover some legitimacy after screaming to any and everyone about how great he is and then being bitched out by Cena. Yes, it got him noticed, and yes, he established his character as the guy who will say anything to anyone, but he can’t back it up, which is the real important issue here, otherwise, he can move to Colorado and join The WTF. He could be champion there. Sad that a SD! guy had to put over someone from The Flagship Show and use his own well-earned cred to do so, but such is WWE.

Regarding DDP: don’t you think it’s partially a GOOD thing that a guy with so many factors seemingly against him (age, looks, questionable athletic background) could make it so far in pro wrestling? It’s a testament to the unpredictable nature of “sports entertainment” during that time. I never even liked the guy at the time, until he won the World Title in that 4-way match with the company’s three biggest names (Hogan, Flair, Sting) and then I suddenly felt enormously happy for the guy. I also enjoyed the Jersey Triad’s run thoroughly.

And another thing: I’ve never heard anyone say they “hate” Ghostbusters before. I’m at a loss. I think it’s one of the most perfect movies ever made, in terms of living up to the potential of all of its ingredients. And then some. Seriously, what is up? I mean, I know there’s no accounting for taste… but, *dude*….
Posted By: KanyonKreist

Considering the way you put that, Kanyon, I see your argument, but I counter with the consideration that there are already far too many non-athletes looking to get over in wrestling for my taste. I respect the amount of work Page invested in being as good as he was, but the fact is, his greatest aptitude that I’m aware was his psychology in the ring and his politicking in the back. Seriously, how many wrestler’s books have you read or shoot interviews have you seen where someone said, “Yeah, well, Page was hanging around and he said so-&-so was looking for such-&-such.” Seriously that guy must have been exhausted, what with busting his ass in the ring and the gym, having his ear to the ground and brokering deals for everyone, plus marital bliss with Kimberly.

I’m not looking to start this up again, I really do respect what he was able to accomplish and that so many people still think the world of him, but speaking for me, personally, he never connected with me. I think it’s best to leave it at that.

As for “Ghostbusters”, ugh. The humor was such an absolute turn-off, as was the case with most mainstream ‘80s humor (Saturday Night Live is an exception). I can tell you that I can’t stand Bill Murray’s humor. I’d watch Letterman back in the day and he’d be literally peeing himself at his desk while Murray did his schtick and I would just be cringing, fumbling for the remote. I never found Dan Akroyd to be funny, either. Like, at all. I found a much greater appreciation for him in later dramatic roles. But I realize there’s a large majority who disagree, and that’s fine. Would it surprise you that the last two movies I saw in the theatres were that Tim Burton Chocolate Factory movie (I don’t recall if it was Charlie or Willy Wonka…) and…hmm. I’m blanking. Oh! “The Devil Wears Prada” which I loved, if only because I’d been working for Meryl Streep’s male counterpart for nearly a decade and had a hell of an appreciation with how well she played him.

Have fun and safe Halloween! Here’s a little video to put you in the mood. Wait, not THAT one…*digs around* A-HA!