wrestling / Columns
Ask 411 Wrestling 01.25.12: Sable, Fusient, Mexico, More!
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Dammit, how do I do this again? Uh…
Welcome to Ask 411 Games! I am your host… No no no.
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This is the Evolution Schematic! I am your Schematicer… Grrr.
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Welcome one and all to this, the first ever edition of the NAES Report.
GAH!
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Ask 411 Wrestling? Yes, yes, that’s it! Ask 411 Wrestling! And I’m… Yes, Mathew Sforcina! Got it! Yeah!
Anyway, before we get down to brass tacks, big big ups to Ryan Byers for filling in while I was playing Skyrim working long hours at the day job. I think he did a superb job, and I thank him for his work. Espcially doing that booker question, I was dreading that one.
However, I’m still sliding back into this, and so I think we’ll begin with the ever popular Total Opinion Week. You know, just to make sure all the pistons are firing.
But hey, also this week is my return to the Tom Tom Club. And while I’m not on them, you should also check out 411mania’s podcasts and the Wrestling PodClash.
And now, the part you’re all waiting for, the best bit of the column, BANNER~!
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Backtalking
Australia’s WCW: The ever reliable APinOz has some stuff about Australia’s WCW to share.
Thanks for including my comments last week on Ask 411. You mentioned that you had seen no footage from the halcyon days of TV wrestling in Australia. Unfortunately, it is pretty rare, probably for a couple of reasons. The time period of the early 1970s was one before digital recording and a lot of the shows were simply taped over to save on videotape costs. Also, the TV studios of Channel Nine in Sydney were damaged by fire sometime in the 1970s and a lot of stored video was damaged beyond retrieval.
However, a few releases do exist and they are a fantastic glimpse into one of the hottest periods in wrestling history:
There were five releases put out by the local Visual Entertainment Group in 1999. The videos were entitled, rather unimaginatively, Slam Vol 1, Crash Vol 2, Wham Vol 3, Grunt Vol 4, Thump Vol 5. They were hosted by a semi-notorious nutter and former Aussie Rules footballer called Mark Jackson and contained footage from the big stadium shows at Melbourne’s Festival Hall as well as matches recorded in the Channel Nine studios in both Melbourne and Sydney. I know the first three are available on DVD, but not sure about Vol 4 and 5.
Three years ago, former Austro-Asian Champion and Oz WCW promoter and later owner Ron Miller released a DVD called “Ruff, Tough and Real.” Miller travelled to the USA and attended a Cauliflower Alley Club convention to catch up with some of the American grapplers who had graced the Australian scene in the latter part of the 1970s. Guys like Ox Baker, King Curtis, Red Bastien, Harley Race and Jack Claybourne are featured on the documentary. There are also 2 DVDs of matches and highlights from the era featuring such names as Mark Lewin, Spiros Arion, Jack Brisco, Don Carsen, Abdullah The Butcher, The Tojo Brothers, Waldo Von Erich, Big Bad John, Antonio Pugliese, Bulldog Brower, Killer Karl Cox and Andre The Giant. It is a fantastic compilation.
I have also seen footage on youtube of stadium and studio matches that are not contained in any of these releases so there must be more out there.
Oz WCW’s undoubted golden era was the early 1970s when Big Bad John played the role of a satanic Southern redneck biker who ran an army of foreign heels including Waldo Von Erich, The Tojos, Abdullah The Butcher, Bulldog Brower and Brute Bernard. A little later on J.J. Dillon filled the role of John, and took part in a famous incident. Dillon always had an unlit cigar in his mouth and during a stadium show he lit the cigar and ground it into the eye of Mark Lewin, who was fighting a brass knux match against Bulldog Brower.
The Big Bad John Army fought the People’s Army, comprised of names like Lewin, Arion, Curtis, Chief Jay Strongbow and at times local favourites such as Miller and Larry O’Dea, who won the Austro-Asian tag team titles from the Tojos at a stadium show to one of the biggest pops you’ll see in wrestling. They lost them back in a famous studio TV match when Waldo Von Erich used a loaded glove outside the ring to bust Ron Miller wide open – an eye-popping visual on Sunday afternoon TV in the day.
Oz-WCW was affiliated with the NWA and the NWA World Champion would make a tour every so often. I remember Jack Brisco and Arion going to a double knockout in the early 1970s. In 1977, Harley Race toured and he and Ron Miller went to a series of stadium 60 minute draws. A famous angle occurred on Sunday afternoon TV when Race was due to wrestle local guy Kevin Martin, but Martin was hurt trying to make the save in the opening match of the program. Miller came out to sub for Martin and pinned Race on national TV, probably the only time an Australian has pinned the World Champion.
Your Turn, Smart Guy…
No question last week either. So let’s go straight into this week’s!
Who am I? I’ve only held one ‘proper’ title in WWE, albeit twice. I was born in my home country but spent part of my childhood in South America. I’ve beaten Bob Backlund while he was World Champion. I’ve also beaten Ric Flair, (but who hasn’t?) and one of my matches has been called by Mick Foley and Michael Cole. Who am I?
Questions, Questions, Who’s Got The Questions?/My Damn Opinion
We begin with… Huh. What’s this? Left over questions? With answers from Ryan already done? Well then, far be it from me to waste good Q&A! I’ll just slip these in here. I’ll rejoin you at the picture of my goddess. That’s Victoria, for the 2 people who are reading me for the first time. Welcome to the site!
Andrew has a DVD question, and I’m not talking about the Death Valley Driver:
Years ago I was pretty excited by the notion of WWE including televised content on their DVD’s, but I’ve always been disappointed and wholly confused in one regard. When WWE tapes and airs televised events, there are of course commercial breaks. That being said, I’ve always been aware that the company seems to record everything, from post-TV shootish interviews to house shows. Heck, on the Rise and Fall of ECW DVD they include a pre-TV clip of Paul Heyman and Jim Ross talking to each other at the commentary table. Nothing formal, nothing happening in the ring, just Ross giving Heyman a pep talk.
Why, then, do they not include full, non-commercial-broken versions of televised matches? Every now and then they’ll do bits like, “Here’s something crucial that happened during the break”, and show that moment, so I know they’re at least taping it. But why not show the whole thing, seamlessly? The best I can figure is that maybe it’s because there’s no commentary going on, so there might be awkward silence. But could there be more to it? Perhaps just enticing viewers to think, “Well I guess I have to be there live to see the whole thing”?
I’ve never seen any sort of “official” answer given to this question, but the most logical response from my perspective that there is virtually nothing to be gained from it. There might be one or two uber-hardcore fans that are the exception, but, by and large, nobody is going to buy a DVD on the promise that there will be four more minutes of action inserted into a match that they couldn’t see on TV.
The other thing to consider is that, if the wrestlers are thinking, they’re not going to be doing anything too horribly exciting during a commercial break when 99% of their audience isn’t watching. Why waste time doing something people will want to see when they won’t be around to see it?
I don’t think that Alimony Mayonnaise Fiesta is his real name, but we’ll go with it. He’s got two questions:
I don’t remember much about him, but how come Van Hammer wasn’t pushed more? He had a marketable look, and from what I remember didn’t completely suck in the ring (maybe I’m wrong). Even before joining the Flock I remember him having a sick finishing of front suplexing a guy’s leg into the ropes and then backwards onto the mat. Why didn’t he get over?
He didn’t get over and he wasn’t pushed because, quite frankly, he sucked . . . so your memory is just a little bit off. He wasn’t very good in the ring when he first debuted, and people mocked him pretty badly because, even though he came in with a “Heavy Metal” gimmick, it became readily apparent that he couldn’t play a single instrument. Eventually, WCW realized that their attempts at pushing Hammer weren’t going to get anywhere, and they set up an angle in which he was squashed by a returning Sic Vicious to introduce one character and write off the other. Hammer was legitimately hurt during the matchup and that, combined with his general lack of talent, lead to him not being seen again until he resurfaced during the Monday Night War.
2. Any idea what Sable is up to nowadays that she is out of pro wrestling? Is she still with Brock?
She is still with Brock. Aside from being a mother to their children, I haven’t heard of her doing much of anything.
Goz kicks it old school:
In the 80’s, was there ever a proper blowoff match between Piper and Snuka? Or for that matter between Piper and Orton when they split? It seems like the feuds just ended.
Yes, there was a blowoff. There were several blowoffs, in fact. They just didn’t happen on television or pay per view. That’s how wrestling was structured twenty years ago. You didn’t do televised blowoff matches to feuds, because the main way that promotions made money was not PPV or television rights fees, it was selling tickets to untelevised live events. So, if you wanted to see Jimmy Snuka get his revenge on Roddy Piper, you didn’t tune into TV on a particular date or order a certain pay per view. You waited for the WWF to come to your town, and you bought a ticket to see the match live.
The Missing Link wants to talk money:
Bret Hart talks about his Wrestlemania match with Bob Backlund being his biggest payday. Steve Austin says he was on incredible money and I’ve read several times about battles royale being included on super cards just to get everyone a payday. What’s the rough pay structure for wrestlers regarding PPV’s?
Maybe this has changed in the last couple of years, but, believe it or not, every interview I’ve heard that has involved a wrestler discussing his pay per view payoff makes it pretty clear that the guys really don’t have that great of an idea of how they’re getting paid. They’re aware that it is generally tied to their position on the card and how well the show draws, but it’s not as though there is a set formula for calculating the payoff or a flat fee that the wrestler gets paid. It’s all based on some arcane method that only the highers up in WWE understand . . . assuming that they even understand it and aren’t just winging things.
APinOz sent in a question at the same time he sent in his “Backtalking,” and I figured I should answer it now because it’s something Mat would probably just send back to me anyway:
Whatever happened to the All Japan Women’s promotion? I recall in the mid-1980s they were one of THE hottest promotions in the world and by the 90s were putting on matches that blew anything out of the water by any men’s promotion.
All Japan Women (which had no connection to the All Japan Pro Wrestling men’s organization) was, in fact, one of the hottest wrestling promotions in the world for a period of time. It was formed in the 1960s but really took off in terms of popularity in the 1970s thanks in large part to the Beauty Pair, a female tag team that also recorded pop music hits. Their popularity was eclipsed by the 1980s idol team of the Crush Gals, and the 1990s saw the dominance of some of the best female wrestlers in history (some of whom rank among the best wrestlers of all time regardless of gender) including Manami Toyota, Aja Kong, Kyoko Inoue, Bull Nakano, Akira Hokuto, and many more. Through in all three of these decades AJW saw a fair deal of business success in addition to critical acclaim, things fell apart as the promotion headed into the 2000s.
Perhaps the biggest cause of AJW’s death was the overall decline in popularity that professional wrestling suffered in Japan during the 2000’s. People still speculate as to the cause of the overall dip in the wrestling business to this day, with many people having fingered the rise of MMA as the cause. Whatever may have lead to it, the fact that wrestling overall was down in viewers lead to AJW’s television coverage being cancelled in 2002, and, more often than not, when a wrestling promotion loses its television, it is dead in the water. The promotion tried to struggle on without TV for three years, but ultimately was forced to close its doors in 2005 due to lack of profits.
Aside from wrestling’s popularity bottoming out, another contributing factor to the closure of the company is that its owners, a pair of brothers by the name of Matsunaga, had significant investments in real estate and lost tons of money when the Japanese real estate market bottomed out in the early part of the 2000s, meaning that they no longer had the cash on hand to subsidize AJW if it was not going to be making money on its own.
Here’s Jon:
Do you think the stage design and layout mean a lot in pro-wrestling? If so, do you have a favorite stage and ring design throughout the different eras and promotions in pro wrestling, and is there any particular reason why it’s your favorite?
I don’t think that stages and sets mean a lot, because, with the possible exception of a Wrestlemania where an elaborate stage is part of the “total package” that makes you feel like you’re watching the biggest show of the year, nobody is going to buy a show or refuse to buy a show based on what the staging looks like. It’s some nice icing on the cake, but it is way down there on the list of things that I would focus on if I were starting up my own wrestling promotion.
That being said, my favorite set was the one that WWE used for a couple of years for its Backlash pay per view, which featured giant “hooks” swinging back and forth along the entranceway. It matched well with the rest of the marketing materials for the show, and it gave us a couple of memorable moments when guys in hardcore matches would use them to set up some unique spots.
Hey now, I wouldn’t automatically send you that All Japan Woman’s OK yes I would never mind.
David #40 has two unrelated questions.
Good morning Mat,
Welcome back. I hope you had a relaxing break from the column.
I keep an eye on the three ‘main’ wrestling promotions, and it appears to be becoming more and more apparent that there isn’t much diversity in characters.
Since Sin Cara Negro lost his mask, he’s become Hunico and is building a little stable for himself (Him, Primo, Epico, Comacho). As I only see the WWE highlights show, I am not sure if Hunico is still linked with Epico and Primo since their WWE Tag Title victory.
While the numbers are a bit different, their characters do not seem that far removed from ‘Mexican America’ in TNA. If the wrestler is Mexican, they seem to fall into the ‘Masked Luchador’ or the ‘Street Gang’ character, with nothing in between (I would personally classify Eddie Guerrero’s ‘Lie, Cheat, Steal’ persona as an offshoot of the ‘Street Gang’ stereotype).
Given the task of introducing an original character for a Mexican wrestler while retaining some Mexican heritage, how would you go about it?
For the record, The Colons have split up from him, they are off with Rosa, while Hunico has just Comacho. Although you never know, they might hook them back up to form another Los Boricuas. It’s been more than 7 years, right?
Except this time they can focus more on the ‘Kill Whitey’ part instead of the Puerto Rico part.
… I feel I should apologize for that but I don’t know who to.
Anyway, one name does spring immediately to mind here, in one of, I’m sure, surprise entrants in the Royal Rumble this year, Alberto Del Rio. He’s hardly a street gang member, nor a masked luchador. He’s a Mexican who’s also an arrogant bastard. That’s the crux of the matter, you really need to just give them a gimmick that’s unrelated to their homeland, and assume that them being Mexican will be obvious or is irrelevant. Hell, that’s the point when you know a group is accepted in American culture, when they can be a wrestler who’s gimmick is totally unrelated to it.
But can you incorporate the heritage without going to those extremes? Well yes, since Del Rio has, but for a face perhaps?
It’s a tough call. Something like a young Mexican man who wants to earn the right to wear a mask, he has vowed not to wear the mask until he wins the world title would be a… interesting angle, as I think about it, but it’d never work in the main 2. ROH… Maybe. And that’s just another masked lucha gimmick.
You could do someone who is rebelling against the heritage, perhaps. Maybe someone who’s far too big to be a lucha, who comes in looking like any other lucha, and you have him very angry whenever someone brings up lucha, he wants to be a wrestler, not a flippy guy, and then eventually you have him reconcile the heritage…
But yeah, really the Del Rio line is the way to go. You give them an unrelated gimmick and mention the Mexican heritage in passing while they make jokes or stand up for women or produce fire from various orifices.
What does Jericho have up his blinged-up, flashing sleeves?
To back up his statement, somehting has to be truly ground-breaking. He’s foreshadowing Kharma’s return, and she’ll be the first RR female winner? Wikipedia says she is 120kg, which is big enough to take on most of the guys on the roster. Instead of killing b****es dead, she’d stepping it up a notch to everyone on the roster!
Triple H has scouted him to be the new Interim Raw GM, after Laurinaitis’ admission of his intentions?
Should we be resigned to nothing in wrestling living up to the hype?
That’s a very cynical position to take. But then again, a cynic is what an idealist calls a realist. The fact is that sometimes things do actually live up to the hype. Punk/Cena, HBK/Taker, Tara/Anyone, sometimes the hype is justified.
I am worried that the awesome idea floating about is too well known right now. The idea being that Jericho wins the Rumble at #30 when the final two in the ring (say Sheamus and Barrett) eliminate each other right before he enters, thus handing him the victory without him actually doing anything. That is a really awesome idea, but it’s on the net here a little too much for my liking.
So what is it that we can expect from Jericho if it’s not going to be a victory via nothing? Probably a new alliance, perhaps indeed with a woman. Not Kharma, unless something drastic happened with her pregnancy. It could just be that he had help in the new tag champs or that he’s officially aligned with Johnny Ace, and the woman’s just a…
…
Oh please not Steph. Please no. I’m not sure I could handle that. Let’s just hope it’s Jericho wins via nothing and go from there, shall we?
Sev asks about babyface champions and if WWE hates them.
Does WWE seem to have some problem with babyface champions at the moment?
I’ve noticed that every time WWE pushes a new face as World Champion for the last several years, they’ve always been or turned a heel or lost it very shortly. I think it’s actually been 7 years since they actually had new Champions that was actually at all dominant, back when Batista and Cena first captured gold. In light of Daniel Bryan being the latest new face to win a World Title, then almost immediately turn, why do you think seems to be making a point of cutting short any new babyface runs? Is it just a coincidence? Do they no longer have faith that anyone but already established stars could ever get the crowd behind them anymore? Considering how WWE seems to have only pushed new stars in the last few years when it became absolutely necessary, it almost felt like they wanted the crowd to be just as reluctant as them to see unfamiliar faces holding gold. I think the strongest World Title runs by newcomers since Cena and Batista were CM Punk and Rey Mysterio, and those two appeared to be explicitly booked as the opposite of dominant champions, at least for their first reigns. All the other new babyfaces were apparently booked even weaker or turned heel. RVD reigned 3 weeks and was still overshadowed by Cena for most of it. After a year long chase, Jeff Hardy had 3 extremely shorts reigns where he barely defended the title at all. Kane won the World Title as a face and completed a heel turn the following week. Christian lost it after 2 days and turned heel anyway. And considering that heels far outnumber faces when it comes to new champions and contenders anyway, the audience hasn’t had many reasons to be happy for younger guys breaking the glass ceiling for a long time.
Why are all the longer, successful babyface title runs now seemingly exclusive to already established main eventers now? Is it just easier to expect an experimental champion to be a heel? Why has it been so long since we had a dominant new face champion?
Because they have Cena and Taker/Orton to fill that role. WWE has had two main event, established, credible face champions to go to whenever they like, so they never bothered building up anyone else to that level since they weren’t needed. You didn’t need to build anyone to Hogan’s level when you had Hogan. When you have Cena as the #1 face, you don’t really worry about building faces, you build heels to challenge Cena, and then when you need to, you turn one of them face.
I think there’s also a possible case to be made for HHH’s influence beginning to creep in, in that if HHH is anything, he’s a traditionalist of the NWA, and that favors strong heel reigns. And even if you don’t think like that, it seems nowadays that most successful faces begin as heels and then drift over (Sheamus, Punk, Orton). You build them up as heels, then they turn heel. You don’t build them as faces.
But it’s mostly the fact that Cena is the #1 face and thus they don’t both building anyone to his level, I believe.
One thing I’ve missed in my time off. newLEGACYinc!
Speaking of building, JJ wants WM predictions.
Really enjoy the column, definitely my favorite one on 411 every week.
Assuming for the moment that the upcoming Wrestlemania features Rock-Cena, Jericho-Punk, Big Show-Shaq, and HHH-Undertaker, that seems to leave a lot of major players without matches. In your opinion, where will WWE put Ziggler, Miz, Del Rio, Christian (if healthy), Mark Henry (if healthy), Daniel Bryan, Air Boom, R-Truth, Zack Ryder, Wade Barrett and perhaps most importantly, Randy Orton and Sheamus? Couldn’t WWE bring Money in the Bank back and have a loaded group of competitors? Or do you think some type of 8-man tag match is how they’ll squeeze all of these guys onto the show?
Thanks!
Given that MITB may or may not be gone as a PPV (the dirtsheets are saying the PPV is gone, but WWE hasn’t said anything…) they might have a MITB match, go back to it being inter-promotional and valid for both titles. But let’s assume they aren’t, since that’s just dirtsheets at the moment.
I forget what I had before, but I’m sure it was totally wrong and stupid and I’m an idiot and blah blah blah, so let’s move on.
After what’s happened so far, I expect Dolph Ziggler to lose the WWE title match and then enter the Rumble, only to end up being tossed by Foley, who then gets pulled out by Dolph, leading to Dolph V Mick at WM in a Hardcore match to put Ziggler over ala Edge was put over by Mick at WM22.
I would assume now they’ll go with Orton V Bryan, possibly also V Sheamus for the World Title. Orton should be healthy by then, and if you assume Jericho wins the rumble, then Orton can earn the title shot at Elimination Chamber. Or have the Sheamus/Orton #1 contender’s match go to a draw if you don’t trust Bryan/Orton by itself.
Henry I don’t think will be on the show as a wrestler, possibly as a second for Shaq, making him his trainer or something, given how long they’ve forced him to work with a torn groin, they will probably give him an easy pay day.
As for the rest of them, Bourne will be fired/suspended and Ryder they’ll probably keep off the show out of spite. So, out of who’s left, I can see Del Rio V Sheamus or R-Truth, Miz V whichever doesn’t take on Del Rio, (or toss them into a tag match), Goldust V Rhodes for the IC title, maybe feed Kofi to Barrett, and everyone else into a battle royal for a shot at the US title. And maybe Regal and Clay can challenge for the tag titles.
And a diva’s match. But no-one cares about them, apparently.
Rahil asks some similar things.
Will the John Cena-Kane feud be the last feud before Cena vs Rock at WrestleMania, thus meaning WM 28 won`t be for the WWE Championship, both Cena and Kane are rumoured to be part of the RAW Elimination Chamber match at the Feb PPV, as Cena/Rock is big enough without a title giving two other matches that much more importance ???
Yes, Cena V Rock is big enough without the title. I expect Cena to win the match at the Rumble, enter the Rumble, and then get cost by Kane and/or Rock’s music. Then he’ll enter the Chamber and lose thanks to distraction again, so it’ll just be Rock/Cena.
Or maybe Rock will try to help Cena win at EC because he wants the title, but Cena refuses and ends up losing…
Also is R-Truth vs The Miz likely to be on the WM 28 card ???
Maybe, but given that they just did it on free to air… Still, it’s possible. But I doubt it. It’ll probably led into other matches, or perhaps a tag match instead.
It seems as if Dustin Rhodes (Goldust`s) petitioning on twitter has worked, as he wanted a match against his brother Cody for the IC belt at WM28, and now he is injected into the Booker-Cody feud, your views on a match at WM 28 matthew ???
Sounds good to me, since I said it above. Dustin can put over his brother and then, perhaps, ride off into the sunset as an agent like he’s doing already. I wager if he does get the slot it’s his retirement match.
Ace asks about plot holes and Kane. Since, you know, that’s totally unusual.
And there’s the full Chandler!
This really bothers me that it’s been 3 weeks since the return of the masked Kane, & he finally cut a promo, but didn’t discuss why he went back to wearing a mask, growing his hair, & wearing his old outfit. Did I miss something?? The announcers haven’t even questioned why the “old Kane” is back, or why he is attacking John Cena & not the man that injured him, Mark Henry. Did I miss something Matt?
To be fair, Kane’s not exactly a role model of logic and consistency at the best of times. The nearest we have gotten was the promo from the Dec 26th edition of Raw.
But he’s fairly clear about where he’s coming from. When he was put out, he was playing to the fans, he was a good guy, and look what it got him. A broken leg, and he was forced out by a stronger, angrier man. So he realised that he had to revert, he had to embrace his hatred and anger. And to do that, he let his hair go, and he donned the mask yet again. But then when he returned, he could have gone after the man who put him out and opened his eyes, but then there was this guy who was like he was, playing to the fans, ignoring the hate inside. So he decided, since he’s such a nice chap, he’d help Cena embrace the hate and realise what he could be. He’s just that nice a guy.
But no, no ‘official’ word.
vjthom39 is late to the party.
How are battle royals typically staged? Is there an exact order planned out for the eliminations, or are only the final contestants pre-planned? Do the wrestlers know in advance who is going to eliminate them and how they are to be eliminated? Have there ever been any shoot battle royals in the majors?
It depends on who’s booking and how preplanned it is, but normally yes you know who will toss you and when. The exact methodology, unless it’s for an angle, is left to them, they might get an idea (“power him out”) but you know who and when you’re being tossed. And no, there has never been a shoot battle royal, as that would be the dullest thing ever, just a bunch of guys laying on the mat, hanging onto the bottom rope and kicking each other. Fun.
Nick asks about Bret Hart in WCW.
Hi Mathew
A question from a long time fan from the Netherlands
This one is probably for the ” my damn opinion ” section. After watching the Bret Shawn DVD I had this running through my mind. After the screw job, WCW had platinum in their hands with Bret. Now, as Bret said on the DVD, it was more politics then stupidity for them not to you use the momentum they had
What’s your take on this?
I ‘mean you got a business to run. Even none wrestling friends of mine understand that theystruck gold at that time. Was it really in the hands of a few guys that played political games. And did the powers in charge go with that? Or do you think there was more to it?
Yeah, it was mostly political. The idea of using Bret and making money off him required you to portray him as a threat. The idea was that this was the WWF Champion, a man who was never really beaten for the title, who got screwed out of the belt. The way to make money off of that is fairly simple, you put him in there with the WCW champ and go from there. But that requires you to bring him in near the top and push him, up until your champ beats him to prove that WCW > WWF. The fact that they brought him in as a ‘second generation star’ and then the whole Starrcade 97 debacle and then turned him a dozen or so times killed whatever momentum he had. It comes down to the fact that he had to be pushed to make them money, and others didn’t want him pushed.
Allegedly.
Rob has two unrelated questions.
Mathew- Love the column, long time reader, 2nd time writer inner. (I’m the guy who asked you to re-post the question the next week with the answer to your brain teaser you always open with, and YOU DID, and you still do! So everyone, you’re welcome.
I was wondering two things: 1) Why is your name Massive Q if your initials are MS?
Because Sforcina’s a stupid name for a wrestler, and Q’s short, simple and memorable. And a reference to whom I crib off. The fact that our first initials are the same is coincidental. Well… I began as Massive Matt Sforcina so I guess it’s not that coincidental but still, it’s not meant to be an initials thing now.
2) Do you know of any instances of wrestlers conspiring with each other to change the outcome of a match from what the booker intended? I have a theory that at the Summerslam where Ventura reffed the triple threat between Austin, Foley, and Triple H, Austin and Foley conspired with Ventura to change the finish and screw Triple H in an effort to teach him some humility. As I recall, at the time I remember thinking Trips was getting very arrogant and cocky, some of which was just due to his character being a prick, but some of which just seemed genuine. So my thought is that the 3 old veterans conspired with each other to change the finish from Trips winning his first world title to Mankind going over. As I recall, the finish seemed rushed as Mankind hit Austin with a chair and they seemed to rush to a quick 3 count, then the next night on RAW I believe they hot shotted the belt over to Trips, which makes me think the finish may have been tweaked at Summerslam without Triple H being in on the change, then he had a fit backstage and Vince made them correct their little revision the next night. This seems like it would be relatively easy to do, as you just explained the formula for a Triple threat where one of the 3 guys takes a turn resting outside the ring. Just wait till it’s Hunter’s turn out of the ring and bam, hit the finish and ring the bell. I guess they would’ve had to clue the bell ringer and the announcer in, but what are the odds that all of them thought Trips was a snot nosed young prick and they all wanted to teach him a lesson?
So does my theory hold water or what do you think? Any chance this is what happened? If not, do you know of any other instances where something like this happened? Thanks,
I have to put the kibosh on that theory in the specific instance you give. The reason for Mick to win the title there was that they needed to get the belt off of Steve in case his neck gave out, and they didn’t want to waste Hunter pinning Steve in a three way, and also they didn’t want Ventura to have to turn heel or have to raise a heel’s hand. They way they did it, Jesse got to raise the hand of a good guy, HHH got the belt soon enough, they were able to do the HHH/Austin match a little later to make it mean something and the belt was off Austin in case he collapsed. The booking’s too logical for it to be a conspiracy.
Now, has it ever happened before? On the indy scene I’m sure it’s happened a few times, when guys get paid off or something, but in the big leagues I don’t recall the outcome of the match itself being changed. Wrestlers might agree to blade despite what the booker wants, or they’ll change the match if they don’t like it, but a conspiracy to change the booking of a match? That’s a new one. One guy shooting, yes. Multiple people changing booking, not off the top of my head. Readers might know suspect something.
Olly wants to talk about the NEXT WM.
Hi Ryan
Really enjoying Ask411Wrestling, and wondered if you could answer a question:
How do the WWE follow Rock/Cena at Wrestlemania? The only big dream match they have left with the current roster is Undertaker/Cena, but I’ve a feeling they’ll leave that until Wrestlemania XXX. If Austin is willing, Cena/Austin would be a strong candidate, Punk/Austin less so. Lesnar’s WWE availability is up in the air, but Lesnar/Taker or Lesnar/Cena would pop a rating. The outside chance of Punk/Michaels is another possibility, but doesn’t really measure up. What are your thoughts?
Thanks!
Yeah, I think Taker retires HHH this year, then maybe Kane next year, and then Cena retires him at XXX.
But what to do with XXIX? First of all, it’s kind of telling that WWE feels the need to do something huge and massive. It used to be that a well told, logical slow build story was enough, but now WWE needs some massive huge match to sell tickets. Telling that.
I don’t think Michaels will do anything, I just don’t see him coming back, he seems so sure of his retirement, I don’t think they can pull him back. Lesnar on the other hand I’m sure would do it for the right cash, and the Austin thing does seem to be floating about. They might just go ahead and try to sell a PPV based on who they have, but I suspect we’ll get a double header main event, Cena V Austin and Punk or Orton V Brock. (I suspect Heyman would prefer Punk but they might have to settle for Orton). I wouldn’t bring Brock back unless he was coming back full time, but WWE will probably be desperate enough to spring for him.
Readers? Your thoughts?
Willy Dope asks about a rumor going around.
I heard via Twitter that the hall of pain Gimmick was meant for brodus clay but Mark henry like flipped cuz he wanted the gimmick. It almost makes sense because why else would they tease and hold off on his Re-Debut for so long. Any truth to this matter?
That’s not the rumor. The rumor was that Brodus Clay was asked by creative for ideas, and he suggested the basic Hall of Pain shtick. Creative then stole it and gave it to Henry, hence why he was delayed for so long, as his idea was stolen by creative.
That’s the rumor. Personally, I’m not so sure about it. I mean, I can’t say for sure if Brodus did or didn’t come up with the Hall of Pain idea, but with all due respect to Mark Henry, that’s not exactly a deep gimmick. It’s just a clever catchphrase.
I believe Clay’s delay, once it became clear they weren’t going to have him squash Ryder to win the US title on debut, was because they already had a monster heel gimmick going with Henry, regardless of if it was or wasn’t meant to be Clay’s, and the creative staff were just trying to work out what to do with him.
I will say this. If Clay did come up with the Funkasaurus thing (which, given how much fun he appears to be having, is a chance), and he came up with the Hall of Pain? Put that man on creative ASAP. Dude’s got some good ideas!
… Remote Control Zebra Goblin (I’m tempted to just pick one name for this guy) has a question.
Hey there Mat 😉 I’ve got a question for you.
Do wrestlers ever get paid for conducting shoot interviews? I noticed that guys such as Kevin Nash conduct interviews with multiple sources. Is it just so they can get their opinions/side of the story on prior issues out to feed their own egos, or are there stipnds involved?
Oh yes, wrestlers get paid for shoot interviews. Yes, the more you give the less valuable you become, but totally, wrestlers get paid for their appearances in shoot interviews. Sadly I don’t know specifics, but Flair for instance got, I believe, $50K for his, although it was part of a package deal that ended up going to court as part of the ‘Ric Flair Humiliation Tour 2008-2012′.
And finally Mark has three topics.
I was reading Marc Elusive’s review of Royal Rumble 89 and it got me thinking, why did they go with John Studd to win it? If I remember correctly, Studd had been gone for a few years, so I guess this was a good re-introduction. But Studd was near the end of his career and the only other thing I remember from this stint in WWF was his refereeing Andre vs Jake at Wrestlemania V. Why do you think WWF gave Studd such a big win on PPV, rather than a younger star or even an older star who could contribute more in 1989?
I believe the idea was to establish him big deal fairly quickly, as most Rumble winners are.
That’s obtuse even for me.
Anyway, the idea was to build to the Studd/Andre II feud, with the roles reversed. They had plans (and the WM appearance was to start it, as much as people bitch about him being just a special ref, that was to kick off the run) but he then left soon after. So in retrospect yes it was a bad move, but the logic at the time (running lots of house shows with Andre/Studd) was sound.
This is kind of a pain in the ass question, but can you give me a history of WWE bookers since Vince McMahon went national. I know George Scott was the booker in the beginning, but Hogan got him fired. Vince has often been his own booker or at least the final say, so did he take over after Scott? Did he share it with Pat Patterson? What about when Jerry Jarrett and Bill Watts came in? At what point did Vince shift from writing with a small coterie of advisers (Patterson & Dillon, JR & Cornette, Russo & Ferrara) to the nameless writers we see today?
How close was Eric Bischoff and Fuscient to buying WCW? I’ve only heard Bischoff make the claim that they were close, but has anybody verified Bischoff’s version of history? The reason I ask is this: If Bischoff and Fuscient were as close as he claimed and the pulling of TV was the deal breaker, why wouldn’t they have at least tried to get the deal McMahon ultimately got, with the same discount? Bischoff said he tried to get a new TV deal but couldn’t do it in time, but if you saw value in the WCW brand, why did they not try to get the WCW name and library, with the idea of doing a re-launch? Even in 2001 it was clear that cable television was still growing, with new networks popping up. It would seem, they might have had a better market to sell Nitro in the summer when most networks are putting together the fall schedule. Considering the price McMahon received, Bischoff likely could have met that by himself or with just a handful of partners. $2.5 million for the name of the former #1 wrestling company, plus $1.7 million for their library is a pretty solid investment, especially at that price. I smell bullshit, but I’m curious what you know or have heard.
Basically what I heard was that Fusient had started off confident, having bought the lines Bischoff was spinning, but then when they got a look at the books, they had a panic attack. WCW was in serious financial trouble at this point, with huge losses and lawsuits all over the place and a dwindling fan base. The fact that Bischoff had, to put it mildly, been slightly optimistic and glossed over some points didn’t sit well with the investors, and they renegotiated the payment plan right before Jamie Kellner stepped in. AOL Time Warner was… accepting, if reluctant. But Fusient was already skiddish.
And then Kellner cancelled the TV.
Now you have to understand, Fusient had gone from buying a solid, if underperforming media company with a couple problems to buying a massively in debt and lawsuit ridden money pit, and then you remove the one positive from it? Remember, at the time, DVDs and on demand services and the like were in their early stages. Sure, today you can see how you could buy the company that cheap and make lots of money on DVDs and the like, but back then that wasn’t on the radar.
And to be fair as well, Fusient did wait for Bischoff to try and get TV time. WCW still did decent ratings in comparison to other cable shows. But the problem was, any network would have to foot a large bill to get WCW out of Time Warner and onto their network. SFX passed, USA was burnt at the time by WWF and was in an anti-Wrestling phase, and Fox did come close but they didn’t bite. So Fusient pulled out. If Time Warner didn’t want it, why should they?
At least, that seemed to be their logic. Because they were businessmen, not wrestling promoters. Wrestling is an industry that can always revolve and change and adapt. But you have to let it, it’s not like any other media outlet. But suits don’t see it like that.
And on that downer note, see you all next week!
