wrestling / Columns
Ask 411 Wrestling 03.07.12: Managers, Firings, Friendships, More!
There comes a time in every life when certain questions get asked. Why am I here? What is my purpose in life? Is there a God? Is there meaning in this world?
None of those questions will be addressed in here, since this is a column about pro wrestling. And I am writing this, so I’m hopelessly out of my depth to answer those questions.
So yeah, welcome to Ask 411 Wrestling. Where we don’t answer important philosophical questions, just stuff about the crazy thing we call Pro Wrestling.
Places where they also talk about wrestling are Just Another God Damn Wrassling Show, 411mania’s podcasting and the Wrestling PodClash.
And, as always, the very best thing ever in wrestling, BANNER!
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Backtalking
MITB/HITC: Whoops, wrong 4 letter abbreviation. My bad.
Beyond that, some examples and discussion that I don’t need to cover, it was good as is. (And yes, I am aware that Sabu’s neck wasn’t Benoit’s fault. I wrote that poorly, in that I meant he was in there with Sabu.)
Your Turn, Smart Guy…
Who am I? My contract was one of the few bought out by WWF when they bought WCW. I’ve been an inaugural champion, and have lied about my nationality. I’ve teamed with a former male stripper, and two different men who were on the first ROH show ever. My usual finisher’s infamous, albeit not because of me personally. I’m 7-10, or maybe 8-11, and you probably know me for a cage match, I am who?
NOT Dennis Stamp is right.
Who am I? My contract was one of the few bought out by WWF when they bought WCW.
. . . AND WAS PART OF THE ALLIANCE AND RELEASED IN DECEMBER 2011
I’ve been an inaugural champion,
WCW CRUISERWEIGHT TAG TEAM CHAMPION
and have lied about my nationality.
PRETENDING TO BE CANADIAN AS A PART OF TEAM CANADA
I’ve teamed with a former male stripper,
KID ROMEO
and two different men who were on the first ROH show ever.
CHRISTOPHER DANIELS AND LOW-KI AS PART OF S.E.X.
My usual finisher’s infamous, albeit not because of me personally.
PLAY OF THE DAY, ALSO USED BY MVP AND RANDY ORTON AT ONE TIME IN HIS CAREER
I’m 7-10, or maybe 8-11,
THE PRIME TIME HOURS
and you probably know me for a cage match,
DECEMBER 5, 2004, WHEN HE WALKED ON TOP OF THE CAGE AND DELIVERED AN HURACARRANA ON CHRIS HARRIS
I am who?
I AM NOT DENNIS STAMP. I’M PRIMETIME ELIX SKIPPER
Who am I? I started out managing a pair of brothers, whose gimmick lead to the one I’m most well known for. My first ever match was on my birthday, where I jobbed. In the biggest company in which I’m currently a champion, I had a long feud with someone who I then ended up tagging with. I went under a mask for my big league debut, although I eventually wrestled without it. Currently riding high after beating an Australian for my new title, I am who?
Questions, Questions, Who’s Got The Questions?
Bob starts us off with a WWE DVD Snafu.
Hi Matt,
Love your column! I’m having a problem trying to figure out what seems to be contradicting facts. On the Shawn Michaels Heartbreak & Triumph DVD, there is a match from his AWA days where he & Marty Jannetty defend the AWA World tag team titles against two guys called Super Ninja & Ninja Go. The WWE DVD dates this match to have occurred on 6/12/87. However, The Rockers held the AWA World tag team titles from 1/27/87 to 5/25/87 (losing them shortly before their “cup of coffee” visit to the WWF). I’ve searched online to see if there was a date for when this may have been pre-recorded (and then aired on this date) or if the WWE DVD is wrong. However, I have found nothing. Do you know anything behind this contradiction?
Thanks!
I believe that it is indeed an era. Hell, on that date, the AWA wasn’t even in Las Vegas. Here’s the show that day, thanks to one clawmaster
6/12/87 Denver, CO
Non Title
Greg Gagne beat AWA Champion Curt Hennig dq
DJ Peterson & Wahoo McDaniel (sub Jimmy Snuka) beat AWA Tag Team Champions Soldat Ustinov & Boris Zhukov
The tag title did not change hands because Wahoo was not originally scheduled to be in the match.
Larry Zbyszko beat Ray Stevens
Wahoo McDaniel dcor Kevin Kelly
Nasty Boys beat Mitch Snow & Steve Olsonoski
Att: 300
There’s a show the next day, 6/13/87, that is in the right place, but as you say, the Rockers lost the belts the previous week. So it might be possible that Rockers stuck around for a week before the tag title change was aired, given that I can’t find a date at the right time frame in the right place at the right time. So I have to suspect that it was the following night… And for some reason the tag title change wasn’t aired yet. But I welcome correction.
Doug starts easy then gets complicated.
Hey Sforcina,
I have 3 questions for you…and I apologize in advance if the last one is time consuming, Thanks!:
I heard an internet interview with Eric Bischoff recently. He was asked by a caller about Glacier. Bischoff- in his typically defensive way- said it would have worked if RVD had been Glacier as originally planned. Was RVD ever going to be Glacier or was this a case of more Bischoff bs? Do you think RVD would have gotten the character over?
In a 1997 RF Shoot video, RVD confirmed that he was contacted to play Glacier. But RVD refused, and so they went with Ray Lloyd instead.
As for if I think it would have worked with RVD behind the mask… The problem with the gimmick was that it was it’s own little idea of the Mortal Kombat rip off that was self contained and then forgotten. So interacting with other wrestlers wasn’t on the cards but the angle was dead on arrival. I think RVD would get over, not the character. Rob will get over most of the time by himself, but he wouldn’t be able to get the entire gimmick and feud over, no. That would take a miracle worker. Who can cut a promo.
I’ve always been curious about the relationship between the Rock and Stone Cold during the Attitude Era. We’ve all heard stories of conflict between the top guy and the nearest contender for his spot (Hart/Michaels, Nash/Hogan, etc) but I’ve never heard any stories of Rock and Austin either liking or hating or being indifferent to each other. Any insight?
Rock mentioned that he and Austin are quote ‘good friends’ when Austin was inducted into the hall of fame. Plus there’s the words they shared at Wrestlemania XIX, where they thanked each other for what they had done. So yes, they are good friends, since I think both of them realise that they needed the other to really make lots and lots of money, and they both respected each other. There wasn’t a significant difference in their attitudes towards the sport (Hart/Michaels), nor were they both paranoid and delusional (Hogan/Nash), and neither man went out of his way to screw over the other (Hogan/Savage).
I have a long standing argument with a friend that I’m hoping you can help settle: I believe ECW was never anything more than a very good, very small, northeast independent promotion. ECW was extremely influential, but the fact that ECW died proves it was never going to become big or mainstrean. My question has to do with TV contracts, Venues, and PPV buys. What was the history of ECW TV? Can you tell me the TV markets where ECW was broadcasted in the beginning and where they expanded? What was the house show schedule, venue sizes, and gates at their peak? What were the buyrates for each PPV?
… Wow.
OK, the following isn’t going to be conclusive, since I’m not in a position to say that I have been able to give the definitive picture of ECW. But here goes.
ECW Hardcore TV: I can’t give time frames and dates for when it was picked up or who got it in syndication for every channel. All I can do is give you a list of the channels that carried ECW Hardcore TV.
America One Network
Bravo (UK)
Empire Sports (western NY)
Empire Sports Network
KBS Chicago
KJLA (Los Angeles)
KTSF TV-26 (California)
MSG Network
SportsChannel Philadelphia (until 1997)
SportsSouth (Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee, Kentucky, North Carolina, and South Carolina)
Sunshine Network (Florida)
WBGT-LP (Rochester)
WBVC TV-61 (Traverse City)
WCIU 26 (Chicago, traded back and forth with WPWR 50)
WGTW 48 (Philly, after WPPX-TV 61)
WPPX-TV 61 (Philly after 1997)
WPTT TV 22 (Pittsburgh)
WPWR 50 (Chicago, traded back and forth with WCIU26)
WRBW (Orlando)
WSWF (Fort Myers)
WUCT TV-52 (Dayton)
WUNI (Worcester-Boston)
But as a rule, it began on the East Coast and then moved west over time.
ECW PPV Buyrates:
Barely Legal 1997 (April 13) .26
Hardcore Heaven 1997 (August 17) .21
November To Remember 1997 (November 30) .20
Living Dangerously 1998 (March 1) .21
WrestlePalooza 98 (May 3) .23
Heat Wave 1998 (August 2) .25
November To Remember 1998 (November 1) .21
Guilty As Charged 1999 (January 10) .24
Living Dangerously (March 21) .25
Hardcore Heaven 1999 (May 16) .23
Heat Wave 1999 (August 2) .26
Anarchy Rulz 1999 (September 19) .23
November To Remember 1999 (November 7) .2
Guilty As Charged 2000 (January 9) .21
Living Dangerously 2000 (March 12) .27
The rest never had their PPV numbers reported beyond ECW Massacre on 34th Street in December 2000 which is listed as being 0.98 which seems WAY too high. Those numbers are about a third of what WWF was doing, they were hovering at 1 and change at the same time, for comparison.
ECW Attendance: Well it’s hard to give a full breakdown (they ran a lot of shows, but take for example a show like November To Remember, one of ECW’s longest running shows. Compare the venue and attendance for the show each year.
November to Remember 93 – Philadelphia, PA – ECW Arena – November 13, 1993 (1,492; sell out)
November to Remember 94 – Philadelphia, PA – ECW Arena – November 5, 1994 (1,000)
November to Remember 95 – Philadelphia, PA – ECW Arena – November 18, 1995 (1,150)
November to Remember 96 – Philadelphia, PA – ECW Arena – November 16, 1996 (1,250)
November to Remember 97 – Monaca, PA – Golden Dome – November 30, 1997 (4,634)
November to Remember 98 – New Orleans, LA – Lakefront Arena – November 1, 1998 (5,800)
November to Remember 99 – Buffalo, NY – Flickinger Center – November 7, 1999 (3,000)
November to Remember 00 – Villa Park, IL – Odeum – November 5, 2000 (4,600)
If you wish to chart the numbers yourself, knock yourself out. But that is about the size/shape of how ECW went in terms of attendance.
In terms of number of shows, 92/93 saw a show every couple of weeks, 94 would run a few shows in a block and then none for a few weeks, 95 was every week 1 or 2 shows, 96 was 2 shows every weekend (usually), 97 was the same (with even less weeks off), 98 began to see weekday shows crop up as well as the weekend ones, 99 saw them doing 3 to 4 shows a week, 2000 was somewhere between the heights of 99 and the twice a week of the years leading up to it. 2.5-3.5 shows a week.
Since their Hokey Pokey Tournament distracted me while writing this, here’s a bunch of newLEGACYinc videos!
From influential to… Less than so. JJ asks about former writers here.
Hey Matthew, great column man!
I have a question that is about a former member of the 411 family, can you tell us anything about the whereabouts of Chr….
*The rest of this message has been redacted*
Sorry, but given certain recent… Unpleasantness, I can’t really dredge up former writers here for fear of getting into trouble with people. So I can’t tell you about guys who jumped to that other site after being made to look a fool for thinking he was communicating with Sunny, then ended up on some tiny little site about Indy wrestlers then vanished, or who are now comedians or who just flat out vanished into the either, which is easy when you use a silly pseudonym like ‘Freakboy’. Nope, sorry, can’t discuss them.
Neil gives us the real leg work question for the week.
Having not started really watching wrestling until the early 1990s I missed out on Honky Tonk Man’s run with the IC title. Thus I’ve only heard about how he would take a count out or DQ just to retain the title. So the meat of the question, what was HTM’s record during his Intercontinental title run. To narrow the focus only count televised and PPV matches that were for the IC title. If you’d be so kind as to break it up into the number of count out losses and DQ losses that he racked up in order to keep the title, compared to his number of wins, that would be great.
See, while I do dread these types of questions, it’s proof that for some reason I’m respected in this here IWC thing. I almost never get the silly “Has it always been the same Kane/Ultimate Warrior” or “Who raised the briefcase” questions. Presumably I’ve answered those well enough. So I get deeper, more interest questions. It’s just that they are often bloody hard to do. But anyway, I normally am interested in the results myself, so here goes.
Thanks to tape delay, Honky won the title June 13th, 1987. He lost it August 29th, 1988. Between those two dates, on TV and PPV (and a couple of really big shows)….
*fires up historyofwwe.com*
Prime Time Wrestling – 7/13/87: WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man (w/ Jimmy Hart) defeated George Steele via count-out
King of the Ring 87 – 9/4/97: Jake Roberts defeated The Honky Tonk Man via disqualification
Prime Time Wrestling – 9/17/87: Tito Santana defeated WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man (w/ Jimmy Hart) via disqualification
Saturday Night’s Main Event #12 – 10/3/87: Randy Savage (w/ Miss Elizabeth) defeated WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man via disqualification
Prime Time Wrestling – 11/12/87: WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man (w/ Jimmy Hart) pinned Hillbilly Jim
WWF Superstars – 11/21/87: Ricky Steamboat (w/ Randy Savage, Brutus Beefcake, Jim Duggan, & Jake Roberts) fought WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man (w/ Jimmy Hart, Danny Davis, King Harley Race, Ron Bass, & Hercules) to a double disqualification
Prime Time Wrestling – 12/31/87: Jake Roberts defeated WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man (w/ Jimmy Hart) via disqualification
Prime Time Wrestling – 2/1/88: WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man (w/ Jimmy Hart) pinned Ricky Steamboat in a lumberjack match
The Main Event – 2/5/88: Randy Savage (w/ Miss Elizabeth) defeated WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man (w/ Jimmy Hart & Peggy Sue) via count-out
Wrestlemania IV – 3/27/88: Brutus Beefcake defeats The Honky Tonk Man via disqualification
WWF Superstars- 5/7/88: WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man (w/ Jimmy Hart) pinned Hillbilly Jim
Prime Time Wrestling- 5/9/88: WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man (w/ Jimmy Hart) defeated Bam Bam Bigelow (w/ Sir Oliver Humperdink) via count-out
Prime Time Wrestling- 7/18/88: Bret Hart (w/ Jim Neidhart) fought WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man (w/ Jimmy Hart) to a double count-out
Wrestlefest 88- 7/31/88: Jim Duggan defeated The Honky Tonk Man via disqualification
Prime Time Wrestling- 8/22/88: Jim Duggan defeated WWF IC Champion Honky Tonk Man (w/ Jimmy Hart) via disqualification
Summerslam 88 – 8/29/88: The Ultimate Warrior pinned The Honky Tonk Man to win the title.
So then, prior to his loss, Honky won by count out twice, won by pinfall 3 times, lost by DQ 7 times, lost by count out once, drew due to double DQ once, and drew due to double count out once. So, 15 matches. He won cleanly 1/5 of the time, and won at all 1/3 of the time. He lost by DQ about half the time. So there you go.
Enchilada Bomb Squad
…
That guy has a question about Tough Enough.
Enchilada Bomb Squad here with a fanfreakintastic question.
1. If I remember correctly, Chris Nowinski and Josh Matthews appeared
to have some tension between the two of them in the original Tough
Enough season. Was that just for the show, or has either come out and
publically spoken about their beef on the show?
I was unable to find either man commentating specifically on that, but I did find this video of Josh Mathews just after the show.
He says that it was pretty accurate, that apart from what they couldn’t show, it was ‘accurate’. So I guess that he and Harvard did have some heat then, if that was shown on air. I’m sure it was enhanced somewhat, but it would appear to be accurate.
Justin asks about managers.
Just a couple of simple questions for the column.
1. I was watching the promo package for The Rock and Austin at WM17. Why exactly was Vince McMahon allowed to declare that Deborah was the Rock’s manager? Which leads me to…
Oh yeah, that little beauty was a really mind messer. I mean, up until that point, managers were independent. They have a talent’s contract, and a manager’s licence. Normally you would not expect the owner to assign a manager…
So in that case, let’s say that Debra wanted a high class wrestler to manage, but none would take her. So she went to Vince and asked him to assign her someone, in that he can say “you have this manager or I fire you” or something…
2. In kayfabe terms how exactly is a manager employed? Are they considered employees of the WWE (or whatever organization they’re in), or are they employed by the wrestler/wrestlers who use them? Do they need a license from the organization? Do managers theoretically help their wrestlers get booked in high profile matches, or are they just there to distract referees?
It depends wildly on what the circumstances are and what the company needs for the storyline. But the general idea today is that a manager has a licence to be a manager, and a contract with the company to be a superstar. Back in the day they were only paid by the wrestlers, but now it’s a little of both.
Supposedly the managers handle all the wrestler’s lives. They get them better matches, more title shots, help them train, teach them, drive them places, arrange their transport and accommodation. All for 10% of the wrestlers’ winnings. At least, that’s the old theory. In today’s WWE it’s more a crap shoot.
Craig has a simple enough question.
Hello:
Are the wrestler’s billed weights accurate or are they higher than they really are? (For example, Randy Orton is billed as 235 and that seems kinda high, although he does have a lot of muscle mass on him).
Thanks,
They can be accurate, but normally they are indeed altered. Normally you would be billed up so that you seem bigger and meaner, but you can also be reduced if you need to get under a weight limit or to enhance underdog status.
My Damn Opinion
Carlos has a couple questions.
Hey Mathew great work as usual. Couple of questions for you. Do you have any idea why the WWE is completely burying Natalya Neidhart? The farting gimmick and the fact that she hasn’t won a singles match since last August I mean did she piss off the wrong person or something?
I cannot say for sure, since it hasn’t gotten out, but I suspect it came up in a meeting and Vince laughed at the idea, so they ran with it. Doesn’t really matter who came up with the idea specifically, Vince, I assume, finds it hilarious, and so they go with it. So blame Vince.
It’s the usual default stance, isn’t it? If anything doesn’t go how you want it to go in wrestling, Blame Vince.
Also what are your opinions on how the WWE is building the feuds of Taker vs HHH and The Rock vs Cena? Thanks for answering my questions
I think both are being built well enough. Taker/HHH I can’t fault, Rock/Cena I do believe they expect a reaction they won’t get. They want 50-50, they want the fans torn, to be divided up into groups. I really don’t see that happening, in Miami. Any other city in the world, yes. But Rock’s home town? I just don’t see a 50-50 split, especially because Wrestlemania audiences tend to skew a little older than your average Raw. But that’s a minor issue.
My major issue is that the other two ‘main events’ aren’t nearly as well put together. Yes, Rock/Cena is the main drawcard, but that’s no excuse for the horrible build to Punk/Jericho and Bryan/Sheamus. Neither of those matches has been built anywhere near what they should, especially given that 3 out of 4 are your long term future, whereas in the other 2 matches, you have one guy who will be sticking around backstage and another who will actually be on the shows.
So taken by themselves, the booking is fine. But in comparison to the rest of the card, I don’t like them, in terms of what they mean.
Don finally gets in (the rest of the questions are in the list, somewhere).
It’s been awhile…no luck on my fourth mail but hopefully i get luckier this time. This is not really a question but rather, get to see your take on the situation.
The locker room jealousy over the Rock has gotten me thinking. Over the history of the wrestling business, the biggest draws/stars seems not to be the best wrestler of his generation. For example:
Hogan > Savage and Flair
More arguable comparisons are:
Austin> Michaels and Hart
Rock>HHH and Y2J
Now we have:
Cena>CM Punk and Daniel Bryan
So why do you think the wrestling business hasn’t really been all too kind to the more skilled wrestler?
Because skill =/= drawing power, or for that matter being ‘the best’.
See, the best is a term that gets tossed around a lot, and the thing is, it has several different meanings. The one you use it as, and the way it’s normally used on air, is the best technically skilled guy. Punk, Bryan and Jericho can all claim, in one form or another, that they are the best in the world, in terms of skill and ability and technical prowess.
But wrestling is not based solely on your abilities in the ring. If it was, it would be an Olympic event with Roderick Strong having gold medals for getting 5 Stars from the Japanese, Russian and Canadian judges.
Strong is a guy I hold up as being an example of why skill isn’t the most important factor in wrestling. I am fairly confident that Roderick Strong could kick my ass. I believe that he can kick my ass. I also have no problem believing that when he wrestles, he is trying to win at all costs, and that he has a gameplan. Roderick Strong is a superb wrestler. Roderick Strong is also one of the least charismatic man I’ve ever seen in wrestling. That’s not a knock on him… Well OK, it is one, but it’s not so much a knock for a knock’s sake as it is an observation. I would book Strong, but I’d never expect him to be my main star. He just doesn’t have the X Factor, or perhaps, hopefully, he just hasn’t found it yet. Compare him to someone like The Miz. Strong is better than Miz in almost every way in the ring. But Miz has charisma (when he’s not dogging it) and is a bigger star because of it.
My point is, wrestling is not a sport, it is a show. And thusly, it’s not the best athlete that does the best, it’s the best showman that gets the most money. You can’t be a totally useless guy in the ring, but if you want to make it to the very top, you need to charisma more than you need skill. Charisma can cover for skill much easier than skill can cover for charisma.
Again, nothing against Strong personally, I do like the guy, he’s just never going to be WWE Champion the way he’s going.
Jeff gets his questions reversed so we can play a game together to end the week.
Hey Matt, I first want to say that I love your column and look door ward to your column ever week. I have 2 questions for you.
2) This question is something that I’m not sure you could help me with. I think only Vince McMahon could help me with it. The night after Wrestlemania 14, Austin was presented with The Big Blue Belt replacing the beloved Winged Eagle. Austin’s would then go on to use the smoking gun skull. A few months later at an “In Your House” PPV, Austin was pinned by both Kane and Undertaker at the same time. The following night on Monday Night Raw, Vince McMahon was in the middle of the ring giving a promo with the “winged eagle” belt in a display case. He was talking about who he would award the title too. Why was the Winged Eagle in the display case, and not the Big Blue Belt? Ive always wondered why. Can you maybe put an end to my curiosity? I’ve wondered this for years. And I’m interested in hearing your opinion on this.
Thanks for your help!
I have three theories about this. See, this was the night after Kane and Undertaker pinned Austin to screw Vince out of the Smoking Skull Belt.
Now then, it’s possible that they used the Winged Eagle belt because they were worried that in the confusion and anarchy that was set to occur that evening on Raw, they didn’t want to risk ruining the proper title, so they used an old one instead.
Or, it’s possible that they just didn’t have access to the Big Blue One (it didn’t make it in time across the country or something) so they went back.
Or, the answer I think is most likely, is that they hadn’t yet finished making the new one. See, the Big Blue Belt only lasted a few months. It got replaced due to both Austin cutting himself and, more importantly, because it had the old school WWF logo on it. See, when Rock won his first title at the 1998 Survivor Series…
See how the belt has a black strap? And the scratch logo at the top? It got replaced at this time. So I wager that they were having the title switched over at the time when Vince got his foot broken, and so they had to use the old title in that angle.
1) Every year, my friends and I try to predict who will be released that year. We start the day after Wrestlemania, and it ends at the next years Wrestlemania. We must pick 11 WWE wrestlers that we think will not be with the company by the next years Wrestlemania. 10 of the wrestlers are worth 1 point. The 11th wrestler is someone who would be classified as a surprise release. The surprise release is someone that had to have held a world title, and no one would see it coming. That person is worth 2 points. There are only 2 rules. A) The wrestler had to have debuted on either Raw or Smackdown. B) The person had to have been on TV within the past year. Can you help me out? In the 4 years that we’ve been doing this, I never won once. Who sold your picks be?
Hmm. Interesting. Well, I’ll start with the surprise pick: Mark Henry, since I believe that unless WWE goes for him in a big way, he’ll leave over the whole ‘not being allowed to rest his groin’ thing. But then, that’s something you can probably see coming, so if it has to be someone off the wall, Miz.
As for the other picks, here are my 10, based on the WWE roster page. But who would you take readers? We might do this again the first Ask 411 after WM, keep a track of it if I’m not too lazy. But think about it now, and comment below, and we’ll return next week with more!
Not sure what, but more of it!
JTG
Evan Bourne
Ezekiel Jackson
Jinder Mahal
Ted Dibiase
Johnny Curtis
Aksana
Darren Young
Drew McIntyre
Tyson Kidd
What of you guys?
