wrestling / Columns
Ask 411 Wrestling 05.15.13: Respect, Rebooking, Retiring, More!
Well, that was a hell of a week. This is Ask 411 Wrestling, I am Mathew Sforcina and my internal body clock is still all sorts of messed up. I guess spending 22 hours awake to film a music video and then a few days later spending 18 hours preparing for your siblings’ 21st tends to mess up the body clock. Still, they were fun. But it does mean that rather then spend the 7 or so hours I normally spend on this thing, I’ll make it a Total Opinion Week and only spend 4-5 hours, lose some of the research. Will be back to normal next week, promise.
Got a question? Email it to [email protected]! Just want to hear me talk? Tune into Cheap Heat Radio! Just want a cool thing to look at? BANNER!
411 on Twitter!
Me On Twitter~!
http://www.twitter.com/411mania
http://www.twitter.com/411wrestling
http://www.twitter.com/411moviestv
http://www.twitter.com/411music
http://www.twitter.com/411games
http://www.twitter.com/411mma
Cheap Heat Radio on Twitter~!
Backtalking
4/10 Horsemen: Yes, I included many more people in my ‘Horsemen’. If you want a ‘proper’ 4 Horsmen, just cut it off at the tag team. But I think that redoing the Horsemen as a straight copy is overdone, and so I’d much rather do a deal where the Horsemen ideals, arrogant bastards who flaunt wealth and success and use the numbers game but are respected even in hatred, that is done on a modern stage, rather than yet another attempt at recapturing the magic via direct copying.
Respect: I’d rather Taker think I was a tool for showing too much respect than think I was a egotistical bastard who was up himself by not showing enough. But that’s just me.
Mentioning Benoit without the incident: I always mention the two together now because I don’t want to drag up the same people I said WWE could bring up. I would rather keep adding in a disclaimer/comment rather than get a whole lot of comments saying I’m glorifying a murderer. Just covering my bases.
Your Turn, Smart Guy…
I am a gimmick match. Part of my name is kind of famous, but it was never used or shown anywhere in that particular night because it was changed before the match started to something that used to win a title in a different promotion from the one I was a part of. All the participants in me were American, but I actually happened outside of the USA. A former World Champion’s interference was involved, which actually backfired. The gimmick of one of the combatants was kind of ironic in a sad way. All the three main participants in me won at different times the same title, although one of them won it in a very controversial and unusual way. On that same night, an international wrestler lost a singles match, but later that night won the same title the wrestlers involved in me won before. What am I?
Well, no-one got it, so here’s the answer from Maravilloso…
I am a gimmick match. Part of my name is kind of famous, but it was never used or shown anywhere in that particular night because it was changed before the match started (“ON A POLE”) to something that used to win a title in a different promotion from the one I was a part of (FORKLIFT). All the participants in me were American (BUFF BAGWELL, CHRIS KANYON AND JUDY BAGWELL), but I actually happened outside of the USA (NEW BLOOD RISING PPV, IN CANADA) A former World Champion’s (DAVID ARQUETTE) interference was involved, which actually backfired. The gimmick of one of the combatants was kind of ironic in a sad way (POSITIVELY). All the three main participants in me won at different times the same title (WCW World Tag Team Titles), although one of them won it in a very controversial and unusual way. On that same night, an international wrestler (GREAT MUTA) lost a singles match, but later that night won the same title the wrestlers involved in me won before. What am I?
JUDY BAGWELL ON A POLE MATCH
And this week, I return to asking questions! Huzzah!
Who am I? My sole big leagues title win was a tag title, won from a team with a future WWE authority figure and then lost back to them a short while later. My partner from that reign would eventually turn on me to join a heel stable willingly, while my later turn to join a heel stable was somewhat less willingly. Although when I joined a later heel stable as a hired gun by turning on my (real life) best friend, that was totally willingly. My sole indy tag title reign came with a second generation star, although I’m not one. I’ve been a red blooded American man, a narcissistic man, a man claiming a dubious injury and a guy who referenced his wrestlecrap gimmick in an ironic way in ECW. Who am I?
Questions, Questions, Who’s Got The Questions?/My Damn Opinion
Willy has the first questions this week.
What’s going on Massive Q few random questions for you.
What all was cut from WM29 and any idea exactly what was planned for the cut segments? I know I’ve heard Cena and Rock were suppose to have hyped up entrances any idea what was planned?
Well the most obvious cut was the Bellas/Rhodes Scholars V Tons of Funk/Funkadactyls. But also Del Rio/Swagger got some time taken off, plus Lillian didn’t sing ‘America the Beautiful’. As for the Rock/Cena entrances, they were, supposedly, to get video packages leading into their arrivals, big music video things charting the last year and their journey to this point. But due to time constraints in the sense that the top three matches had to have as much in-ring time as they wanted, these were all cut. Possibly some backstage stuff was cut too, but those were the main ones that got floated out there after the fact.
Not sure how familiar you are with professional sports, but who are some professional athletes you think would succeed in the WWE?
I’m very much not familiar with sports. Wrestling takes up most of my sports needs, so I don’t know too many, and those I do know are mostly Australian. So I’ll say the more flamboyant half of UFC fighters and then let the readers decide who they would consider to be successful wrestlers. Or they might just yell at me for dodging the question. Either’s good.
Do you think TNA has been carrying out the Aces and Eights storyline good? Personally I was hoping for Jeff Jarrett to return as the leader but bully ray is great in the role, thoughts?
I think a lot of people were hoping for Jarrett to be the leader. No, wait, not hoping, dreading, that’s the word.
But I think that although the storyline is now acceptable, and the Bully Ray reveal was very good, I don’t think that the awesome Hoax reveal videos…
Make up for the dragging the storyline did during it. It does excuse some of it, but not all of it. But I think the storyline is good, although I’m worried about endgame. Sting or Hogan being the conquering hero is a bad outcome. AJ or Abyss/Joesph being the conquering hero is a good outcome. So I think that although it has dragged in parts, overall the storyline is good, so far. Let’s hope it continues this way.
Aedonix kisses my ass for a bit, but there are questions in there somewhere…
Greetings and salutations to you Matthew
Awesome column! My Wednesday morning ritual would not be the same without it. A coffee and a damn good read.
Some quick questions for you. one opinion, one sorta-fact based.
Your dreams come true! Vince gives you a contract with WWE and you are going to headline Wrestlemania! Problem is… Creative have nothing for you because as usual they are air heads so you have to put together the whole main event from scratch right from picking your opponent(s) through to laying the match out including spots and the 4 weeks of build up to it.
Who would you go against, how would you build it describe the match itself and the outcome and any possible aftermath Give Massive Q his Wrestlemania moment!
Geez… OK.
If you’re not interested in egotistical fantasy booking, just skip ahead to the next video.
I need more than 4 weeks build up though. I need to begin earlier, because I win the Royal Rumble in this one. So, assuming you give me that, let’s do this old school…
Phase 16b: The Future’s So Bright, He’s Gotta Wear Shades!
After winning the Royal Rumble, Matt Sforza relaxed, and didn’t wrestle until the night after Elimination Chamber. He spent those weeks watching Raw and Smackdown from private boxes, cutting promos on both World Champions, as he was ‘considering his options’ and ‘getting closer to a decision’. But the Raw after Elimination Chamber, he was ordered to make his choice after his match by COO Triple H, as WWE had to know so they could plan the show. And then Sforza dropped his bombshell.
On that night, he defeated The Miz, the last man he eliminated to win the Rumble, and then got a mic. He teased going after both titles, but then said that he had a bigger goal in mind. He stated that he could, and would, be WWE and World Champion some day. But right here and now, he had a ticket to a far greater prize. Instead of either of those titles, he wanted the true golden opportunity. He wanted his shot at true immortality.
He wanted the Streak. Sforza, Undertaker, WM.
After a week of consternation and debate in the WWE Universe, it was decided that if Undertaker accepted the challenge, it would stand, but if he didn’t, then Sforza would have been deemed to have vacated his title shot, under the Vince McMahon 1999 rule. But as Sforza complained about this in the ring, the lights went out, and as normally happens, The Undertaker appeared in the ring. He stared at Sforza, at the Wrestlemania sign, and then nodded slowly.
And then vanished. But Raw ended that night not on a shocked or even a thrown Sforza. No, instead, he was smiling.
The following week he explained himself in a promo package, as footage from all of Undertaker’s previous matches played. Sforza explained that each and every man who stepped up to the plate had failed, that every wrestler had been unable to get that win. And he knew why. Because they all fell for the same trap. Because they all said the same damn thing.
The montage then ran all the times that opponents said that they weren’t afraid of the Undertaker, and that his mind games won’t work.
Sforza explained that they all focused on combating the mind games, all of them focused on beating this Phenom. Whereas Sforza? He freely admitted that he was scared. He was afraid. But he was afraid because he was focused on the fact that the Undertaker was and is a superb wrestler. He was focused on the fear he felt of wrestling a talented opponent. And unlike all those who came before him, his fear was defeatable. He could, and would, overcome that fear. And only those who truly overcome fear achieve immortality.
And it seemed to work, as when Undertaker tried the intimidation factor later that night after Sforza’s victory over Kofi Kingston, he was unfazed by the lights, the music, the smoke. Instead, an iconic moment was created when the ringing of the bell in Undertaker’s theme was followed by the crack of a steel chair shot, as the lights came back on Sforza standing over Undertaker, steel chair mangled. Taker did sit up after Sforza had left, but the point was proven.
The next week, Sforza beat Kane in a long match on Raw, and once again, Undertaker tried to surprise Sforza, and again he beat Taker to the punch, as when Taker went to set fire to the turnbuckles, Sforza managed to yank Kane in the way to take the brunt of the blast. As Taker went to his brother, Sforza attacked him and left him laying by his brother’s side with the Force of Will Impant DDT. Again, Undertaker and Kane both sat up, but Sforza was again gone, having proven his point.
All that was left was Wrestlemania. After the video promo of Sforza’s self proclaimed ‘Rise to Glory’ of the past year, leading to winning the Rumble and now his attempt at ending The Streak, the two men entered. Sforza’s entrance was lavish, with a golden coach pulled by many footmen dressed in the Sforza crest, his ‘duchess’ Gloria De Luca in a long red velvet gown. Undertaker’s entrance was equally impressive, as the coach began to head back to the entrance it was suddenly struck by lightning. The footmen scattered as it caught on fire, and then began to roll of it’s own accord to part of the entrance way, where it then exploded in a flash of light, which then revealed The Undertaker, standing in the wreckage. He then walked to the ring, and the match began.
And the match was basically the story of Sforza slowly but surely countering everything The Undertaker had. He showed no intimidation at his coach blowing up, and hit the ground running. Almost every signature spot Taker tried, Sforza had a counter. He wasn’t able to control the match, as most of his big moves were also blocked, but as the match progressed, Taker was driven more and more out of his comfort zone as he was forced to go more and more off-playbook, having to nail stuff like the Heart Punch and lock in a Dragon Sleeper to inflict real damage. But after he went for his famous plancha and only hit Gloria as Sforza pulled her in the way, Taker was suddenly on the defensive. For 5 long minutes, Sforza controlled the pace, and nailed several strong moves in a row, culminating in three Force of Will DDTs. But Taker kept kicking out. But after a desperation chokeslam attempt was blocked by a low blow kick that the ref missed, Sforza locked in the Caterina’s Cradle Cloverleaf. And after several agonising moments, with Taker not moving, the ref, reluctantly, went to call for the bell.
But Sforza refused, breaking the hold. The cameras clearly picked up him telling the ref that Taker would tap out, he wanted a submission, not a cheap pass out victory. But then as he turned around, Taker sat up. And after a few more moments, he was planted with a chokeslam off the top rope and then Taker got the pin, and the Streak survived.
Phase 16c: So about that future…
And that began the downward spiral for Sforza, as his depression over the loss led to a losing streak as he lost to almost all the people he cheated on his way up the rankings. Gloria left him, and he was on the verge of getting fired, but then it all changed at Money in the Bank…
At least, that’s what I’d do right this moment. Tomorrow I’d probably have a different idea.
Also, are there any of your matches you could link or put into the video section? (Loved the Wolf Dog stuff, had me chuckling into my coffee)
Sadly pretty much all the stuff online of mine is very old, as not too much of my current stuff gets uploaded. This is the most recent stuff of mine online, sadly not the best match ever. Although the whole ‘shoulder fracture’ didn’t help matters.
and now for the sorta fact based question.
How would you advise someone pushing their 40’s about how to get into the wrestling business would you suggest in ring competition? backstage stuff? or would you simply suggest remaining a fan?
Keep up the great work! whether it’s a total opinion week, or one of those where you can go in-depth they are always a great read.
I’ll admit that 40’s is pretty late to be starting in the business, but it isn’t too late. Too late would be when you’re dead. As for the best option, it depends on how physically fit you are. If you think you are up to becoming a wrestler, enrol in a school and try out. You’ll get some shit from other trainees about your age, but then every trainee gets shit from everyone else about something. Even if you only want to become a manager or a ref, which are probably better bets if you’re starting that late, basic training is essential.
Or, alternatively, you can go the other route and start helping out a local company. Offer to put up posters or ask if you can help set up or something, try and help out with the company. After a while you may well be asked to work the camera, or be time keeper or something, and then you could well end up having to do ring announcing when the normal guy doesn’t show, and away you go. It’s riskier since there’s no guarantee of anything, whereas if you finish training you’re more likely to get some sort of booking, but it’s up to personal preference. But as far as the age thing goes overall, it’s not a huge roadblock. It is an issue, sure, but no more so than a slight medical condition or some other minor issue. It can be worked around, and if you’re passionate and dedicated enough, anyone can make it in this business.
Nightwolf gets two emails merged into one.
1. I’ve always wondered about something. Does the WWE have some sort of agreement with past Superstars coming back to manage current wrestlers?How do they go through the process of choosing which past wrestler manages the current one? Like Dutch Mantell coming back to manage Jack Swagger.
Depends on the person and their relationship with the company at the time. There are contracts for each position a person holds in the company. Someone like Arn Anderson for instance, has an Agent’s contract, for his work as a road agent, and then he has a Legend’s contract for his occasional appearances and, if he chose to, Indy shows. A Legend’s contract says that WWE can market the name/likeness and that the Legend has to make appearances when WWE asks them to, but that they can still work Indy dates.
However, a long term appearance deal, where they would appear each and every week, that requires a talent contract, the Legend’s deal isn’t air tight enough to allow WWE to force them to appear constantly. (There was the story going around years ago when Dusty was pushing to become an on-air authority figure so he’d have 3 contracts at once).
So, if Dutch had been under a Legends contract, and they had wanted him for one or two appearances, then they’d just call him up and tell him when and where to be. But since he’s working full time, as it were, he would have a talent contract and all the rights/requirements that holds. This also covers guys like Arn Anderson and Michael Hayes who are agents/producers, if they were to make a one off managerial appearance that’s covered by the Legends deal but long term is contract based. Ranjin Singh had two contracts as writer and manager of Great Khali.
2. Ok, so John Cena is your franchise player and cash cow. He ends up having a career ending injury. What do you do now that your biggest star you’ve relied on ( while burying other potential talent) can no longer wrestle?
You turn whoever it was that injured him (assuming it was in a match) into your biggest villain ever, as you madly scramble and decide who is to become your new biggest star. Once you have chosen your guy, you have him beat your big villain who defeated Cena and then run with your new guy as Cena 2.0. And then you just hope that whoever it is will take off as well as Cena did, or at worst not totally suck.
Now sure, this would be easier if you already had a couple of guys lined up, if you had someone you were grooming for the spot ready to take over, but since they don’t, they just pick Orton or Sheamus or Miz and roll the dice. Or I guess they could go with Punk maybe since he has worked the best so far and is the most logical choice, but this is WWE. They’d never go with logic.
3. Lets say Undertaker’s last match is at Wrestlemania 30. Lets say he goes 22-0 then retires from wrestling. In your opinion, chronicle WWE’s first year ( Wrestlemania 31) without the streak being on the line. What do you do now that your biggest attraction for the last 22 years at Wrestlemania is no long there?
Well, you announce him as the first inductee into 31’s Hall of Fame, so you have at least one last chance to use him, but the year probably wouldn’t look too different since Taker is such a rarity nowadays. Given that he only made the very occasional appearance, it’s not like the storylines for the company will have to be changed that much. Hell, if he’s still mobile, they might be able to still do the occasional appearance.
But in terms of Wrestlemania, the cynical move would be to try and recreate it, and to do that you’d have your next Streak win the title/be a big deal at Wrestlemania. That would be, at the moment, Miz.
I’ll let that sink in for a moment.
Although it could also be any member of The Shield.
I’ll let that sink in for a longer moment.
However, I doubt WWE will try that, so instead you’d just want to find a huge match to ease you between the two eras, the Streak and post-Streak eras. Maybe have Kane take on whoever lost to Taker last in a retirement match or something, while also throwing money at Austin, Rock and/or Michaels to come back for one last match, just to tide you over, giving you two full years to rebuild the brand of WWE and Wrestlemania to no longer including Taker and The Streak.
1. Who is the most insane wrestler to step foot inside the squared circle? My pick is Sabu. He’s the Suicidal, Homicidal, Genocidal, death defying maniac. He never went to the hospital always super gluing his wounds shut. I remember one a match he wrestled in ECW where he got his jaw broken. he duct taped his jaw shut and continued wrestling. Who would you say is the most insane wrestler? Also do you know watch match I mentioned with Sabu duct taping his jaw shut?
I know Sabu had to tape his leg closed during that barbed wire match against Terry Funk, and the Jaw taped shut match is I believe Stairway to Hell match at ECW House Party 98. But is he the most insane?
Well, there’s the Insane Clown Posse. Insane is in their name, after all.
Or I suppose there’s the ‘crazy’ type of insane, guys like Iron Sheik and Ultimate Warrior and the like, there are insane in one way…
And then there’s pretty much everyone who wrestles ultra-violent matches for little pay, that is stupidly insane…
But I guess my choice for the most insane wrestler would be… Chris Benoit.
But Sabu is pretty high up there, sure.
2. If you could compare the Shield to any wrestling faction in the past, who would you compare them to? Also when was the last time a group like the Shield made a huge impact in wrestling?
To be honest, has the Shield made a huge impact in wrestling? I mean, yes they have made an impact in the business, sure, but they aren’t household names. They aren’t cross-market stars. There isn’t a meme of people putting “Sierra Hotel India Echo Lima Delta, The Shield” over video of random pop culture figures standing alone yet. (Someone get on that.) So if you’re asking the last group to make a huge impact on wrestling, that would probably be DX, but if you want the last group to make as big an impact on wrestling as Shield, that would be Evolution.
As for who I’d compare them to, I’d actually go back to the Horsemen, simply due to their single-mindedness. The way they act as a unit, that’s very Horsemen in style, although the fact that there is no clear leader muddies the water a bit. Stables without figureheads are somewhat rare. I mean Ambrose is pretty much the leader, but not officially. So that makes them relativity unique. But Horsemen are as close as you’ll get, I think. Maybe someone below will disagree.
And I forgot to include this last week. Yet more me.
… Is that Victoria at the end there?
OK, now we’re getting somewhere.
Commanche Eraser Face AppleBottom Feeder is yet another victim of the backlog.
Why do you think that factions rarely exist in the WWE nowadays. In
TNA their seems to be a new faction every few weeks. Ever since Legacy
ended a few years ago , there hasn’t been a regular faction in WWE.
Why is this?
Well obviously that’s no longer the case, but the overall lack of them is due to WWE being focused on solo stars and singles wrestling. They see the most money in that, that’s where the cash is. So they want people who can stand on their own, and who will get over by themselves. A tag team is all right because you can split them up neatly, one turns on the other, boom, 2 single stars. A stable is more complicated, you end up without neat divisions. That appears to be the justification.
Colossal Concrete Megaphone Addiction asks about an infamous ‘match’.
My memory may serve me incorrect, but I believe at IYH Good Friends,
Better Enemies or Beware of Dog, the Ultimate Warrior and Goldust had
a match scheduled. Goldust entered first, and then Warrior came down
and sat in Goldust’s director’s chair (I believe this is what
happened). For whatever reason, the match never got started. I
understand a scheduled match not happening on RAW, but this shouldny
happen on PPV unless there is a good reason. Any indication as to why
this happened?
Although I wouldn’t watch that thing. It’s pretty bad.
Anyway, the answer isn’t particularly interesting. Goldust had an injured leg and thus he couldn’t work a full match, so they went with that… Thing instead. I guess they decided that presenting a pseudo-match was better than no match at all.
Kevin wants to talk nWo in WWE, across two emails I’ve combined into one.
I decided to watch some 02 WWF. I am at the Rumble right now. But my question has to do with the nWo. What was the original plan? If I remember correctly as this was the last time I watched WWF until a couple years ago, Vince brought them in. It seems like the entire thing was mishandled. After all it had been six years so another Invasion could have worked better.
And from what I am seeing now, it also seems that the nWo was unnecessary. Vince had no allies. Sure he lost to Flair but it seems like the WWF was really reaching here.
Finally, what did you think of the brief WWF version of the nWo and was it DOA or did it have potential?
~
So I have watched the WWF version of the nWo (after sending you the question), well I am nearing Backlash anyway, but it is pretty much over by now. And I must say that the build was not too bad. Here is what I don’t really get: The whole point of the nWo is that it destroys. That is what made the WCW incarnation so incredible. It was played off as an actual invasion, and everyone portrayed it as such and for wrestling standards the acting was kick ass. Now Vince is bringing them in to inject poison. To counteract Flair. Yet, nothing is done. Flair feuds with the Undertaker who basically does Vince’s bidding, and Vince just lays low.
I enjoyed the build between Hogan and the Rock and I understand that you need to keep the latter and Austin and others strong. But it just seemed that nothing fit. In a perfect world, Hall and Hogan win. It keeps the nWo strong and from what I have read, Hall was supposed to win and that would have given more credence to when he and Nash berated Hogan for failing to do the job against the Rock after he turned face. But I guess Austin was really unhappy and was going through Menopause and quit anyway. So not only will you lose one of your top guys. But the nWo angle has been neutered.
Also, turning Hogan face just because of the Canadian crowd, which has always been really pro-Hogan seems a bit premature (But I see why Austin may have refused to work with him now….and for once I am siding with Hogan as it seems that Austin was the more intransigent one here). They could have played Hogan off as a heel for a bit and still made the money off him as he would win the title down the road. In a perfect world, a world where Hall remains sober or at least if the angle is working, they just give him an on-air capacity only and Nash did not get hurt until later or stayed healthy, you have them take out the WWF/E guys. Austin quits and you give credit to the nWo. Vince is all excited and thinks he has won but out comes Bischoff and he takes control from Vince as it has all been a set up. You can bring in Show and Pac and even Hennig to pad the ranks etc.
Now Vince needs to rally the troops: You bring back DX and they feud with the nWo. Have a great Survivor Series match but then bring back Scott Steiner to stem the tide allowing the nWo to win. Now the following year, Austin comes back and he and the others rally and destroy the nWo in a WM blowoff and you can even bring back some WCW staples like DDP who helped beat them as well Goldberg, and perhaps compel Sting to comeback. Have X Pac betray the nWo or vice-versa when it comes to DX. You don’t even have to play it off like this but there seemed to have been so many options. Do the brand extension and have the nWo invade and DX and them and even reforming a Horsemen stable (I know a lot of stables!) and infiltrate and recruit guys. Have Lesnar as a hot free agent or just have him as a Goldberg type guy who just kicks ass.
Ultimately, for some reason I am an nWo mark, just because it helped change wrestling forever. It was the one time that heels dominated (albeit for too long) and I would argue that that summer of 96 was unmatched in modern wrestling history if not wrestling history. I don’t dislike the WWF incarnation and felt it had great potential but it ultimately died prematurely and for once I am not going to wholly blame Vince who though seemed to be schizo when booking it….as Austin was unhappy, they ran with Hogan, Hall and then Nash getting fired and hurt. But I still feel that something more and better could have been done.
I will say that Hogan is not as annoying this time around. I enjoy watching him, as he does not seem so full of himself. There is so many egos surrounding him that his does not dominate or maybe he has learned his lesson….And I will say that Hall when sober works hard. I loved his interactions with Austin. He sold great. He was the workhorse of the group as he always has been. His promos, acting and vignettes were really good. It is such a shame about his demons because I think he could have had a great couple year run in WWF/E even after the nWo died.
The point was to try and make the same amount of money that WCW did for that one year with the nWo, and they’d do that with Hogan V Austin or, failing that as they couldn’t work that out, Hogan V Rock. WWE didn’t have a storyline direction as such, they were just trying to get the WCW audience that had vanished back, given that the InVasion had sucked, so maybe if they brought in Flair and then the nWo, that would make the WCW ratings magically add to the WWF’s ratings. WWE for a couple of years kept trying to find the secret to getting the WCW audience to come to them, something they never managed to do.
But in terms of storyline, and how it was handled, I think it certainly had potential, depending on how you wanted to play it. There’s two main schools of thought.
The most direct is basically InVasion 2.0. Bring in the main 3 guys as well as Bischoff, and sell it that they are the ‘real’ InVasion. They aren’t a bunch of scrubs just grateful for a job, they are not a bunch of people hero-worshiping Steve Austin and/or Paul Heyman while taking orders from McMahons. This is the real InVasion, you may have been able to beat WCW, but this is the other side of the coin. This is the dark, evil twin of WCW. This is the nWo. And this time, we won’t stop at control. We want total destruction, we’re here to scorch the earth. We destroyed WCW, and now we finish the job. Have Vince give them nice iron-clad contracts, then their first official act is to drive Vince through a flaming table or something and go from there.
The more subtle way however would be to, instead of Vince declare he’s bringing in the nWo, force a board vote, either Flair is removed from power or he quits. Flair, torn, eventually gets an 11th hour deal from a EKHS Holdings or some such, and he sells his half of the company to them. You can then drag that out as long or as short as you like, and now the nWo owns half the place. Have them take over Raw totally, make it nWo Nitro, go with them already in control and now most of the roster has to fight the oppression…
Either way, although it was highly repetitive and another rehash, it could work. The talent involved was still pretty good, as long as you used it right. Have them talk but get them an army to wrestle, and you can totally make it work. Although Hogan turning face was going to happen soon regardless, thanks to the nostalgia factor at play. But hey, that can easily be made to work out…
Greg is WHAT asking about WHAT a certain WHAT chant.
WHAT.
Look forward to the column every week and loved the Botchamania ad! I’ve got some questions that I hope aren’t recycled but I’ve never seen them addressed before:
1. The “What?” Chant. I’m of the opinion that it’s like “the wave” at this point as you cringe when you first hear it starting up. However, I guess you have to respect something that’s not only become a part of wrestling culture, but has stuck long after its creator has left the scene. And yet, whenever I see lists of the top promos of all time the “Stone Cold/Scotty 2 Hotty What?” promo is never mentioned. I remember it being pretty intense at the time just because you didn’t know what “crazy” Austin was capable of.
Yeah, it has stuck around, like a bad rash or Snooki (same thing), hasn’t it? But the original promo has been lost, since the ‘real’ story is now somewhat vaguely known.
But the promo in question is also part of the Heel Stone Cold era, which has been buried a fair bit by WWE since it was such a disaster financially, even if creatively it was pretty cool. Ignoring the What thing, obviously.
2. Continuing the “What?” theme, I’ve noticed that wrestlers have taken different approaches to combat it by either trying to talk over the crowd, addressing how idiotic it sounds (especially since it’s usually only done to heels), or the current approach which seems to be to ignore it. I guess this is opinion, but how would you handle it and what is the best response to the “What?” chant you’ve ever seen?
I think how you handle it depends on the character. Stupid/emotional heels should get angry at it, smart heels should outsmart the fans, and Mark Henry can do what he likes because he’s Mark Henry. I’d personally go the insulting/bafflement route, ala Roddy Piper at Wrestlemania and Undertaker on Raw.
That’s the best line, but the smoothest handling I ever saw was by Shamrock on an early TNA show, actually, where he simply began to speak with slightly odd pauses. He’d pause suddenly then speak just as they chanted, and not pause at the end of sentences. Within 30 seconds he’d totally thrown the audience and they stopped chanting it since they couldn’t get the rhythm down.
But Taker’s the coolest one.
3. Finally, since we’re on the subject of a catch phrase. It seemed like catch phrases were considered crutches by some of the old school guys like Flair and Dusty, kind of like the guys that used them in promos were akin to prop comics or something. However, just about all of the main eventers in the attitude era had catch phrases, something that can’t be said of most of the main eventers now (Punk, Orton, Del Rio, etc.) I know Punk has said in quasi-shoot promos that he’s not a catch phrase guy and is disappointed that Daniel Bryan was reduced to that. Do you think catch phrases help or hurt a wrestler once they’ve made it to the top? It seems to be something that a mid-carder uses to get over and then tries to run away from once they make it.
Thanks,
I think that you can make it to the top without a catchphrase, but it does help you get over the hump, as it were. Provided it’s good, though. A bad catchphrase will drag you down for sure. Once they make it to the top though, you have to be able to talk without catchphrases.
A catchphrase is a way to fill time without content, a way to give yourself time to think. A main event guy should, in theory, be able to talk without such a need, or at least with the ability to mix it up enough to not be noticeable. Not saying you can’t use them, just that you should be able to avoid them if you have to. But it’s not going to make you crash and burn if you rely on them. Many main event guys have relied on catchphrases and basic ideas, and that’s fine. In moderation.
Gandalf the Greyte White Hope asks a few questions.
Following the question from late December about Scramble matches, I read the suggested article, which was a great read, and there was a nice discussion between the author James and a commenter Dave W. In the discussion Dave compares the final portion of a Scramble match to the final portion of an Ironman match, which he archetypes as always being tied or within one pinfall.
Therefore, what is the largest margin of victory ever in an Ironman match? (I’ll let you set the parameters for things like Big Feds/Indys, PPV/TV/House Show, Legit/Not Legit, etc.).
*quickly goes back to reread his article and the one he linked to*
Ah, Art0Donnell. Good peoples.
Anyway, I looked around quickly, and I honestly could not find a single Iron Man match where the winning margin of victory wasn’t 1 fall. The numbers may change, but every one I found had 1-0 or 4-3 or at best a draw. The only exception is stuff like ROH’s Crowning a Champion which decided the first ever ROH champion with a 4 way Iron Man match that went 2-1-0-0, with Low-Ki beating Christopher Daniels by one fall and Spanky and Doug Williams by 2.
It seems that pretty much every Iron Man match ever went to the wire, oddly enough.
And to throw a little opinion spice into the crockpot, do you think a huge blowout (8-1, 11-0) could be a useful device in certain situations, and would the fans maintain any interest past a certain margin? The immediate potential scenarios that come to mind include building a monster, having an injured face heroically compete with said injury, a punishment match (even handicap), or an unbelievable amount of cheating.
It would be a hell of a risk. See, almost every Iron Man match has the problem that people tune out during the middle, and only come back at the end when the action picks up. So a match where there’s a massive blow out and little hope for a win is a big ask. I mean, a heel cheating and ending up with a big fat lead that the hero has to chip away at, sure. But having a blow out and keeping it? That’s pushing it.
However, if you made it, say, 10 minutes, then it could totally work for a big fat heel. Have him say that he has to ensure some challenge, so he has 10 minutes with a series of jobbers, and he pushes himself to get more and more victories in the same amount of time. And then one week, someone scores a fall on him, or he draws, or whatever. Then you have a feud ready to go. Sort of like Big E’s 5 count but taken to the next level. You’d need a very talented/charismatic monster though.
One other thought that is purely being fueled by jetlag and probably contains no logic: What about a combination Gauntlet-Ironman match where instead of the Gauntleted wrestler having to win every fall, he simply has to win a majority of them? He is still at a disadvantage in terms of fatigue and having to face a variety of styles, but Gauntlet matches rarely hold any value–either the Gauntleted wrestler wins and seems borderline superhuman at the end in a very fake way, or loses as he should and the “match” isn’t really much of a competition. Call it the One-Man Rumble if that’s sexier, and perhaps make it longer than a typical Gauntlet (best of 7? best of 9?). Good potential for stable usage here too–I might find it interesting if Ryback beat Rollins in the first fall, lost to Reigns in the second, and had to face Ambrose in the third.
Hmm. Gauntlet matches tend to be put in as punishments by evil authority figures, so having a gauntlet match with an out like that seems counter-intuitive…
Maybe you could make a match where it is teams fight in an Iron Man match, but where after each fall they tag out and the other guy wrestles. So if Cena and Miz wrestle The Shield, say, first call Cena V Rollins, then after Cena makes him tap it goes to Miz V Ambrose, and then after Ambrose pins Miz it goes to Cena V Reigns, make it so that the punished team gets some respite but not much, plus you add in the “do I go for a hard win and put my tired partner in, or drag it out and risk losing/not getting enough falls?” and what have you.
But a Gauntlet/Iron Man match… Possibly it could work, but you’d need a crowd that was on the ball. Not sure you’d find too many of them.
Aaah, what the hell, one unrelated question: on SNME in the late 80’s or early 90’s, Ultimate Warrior had a match where he hid under the ring. (perhaps against Rude or Hennig). I remember timing 63 seconds before he got back into the ring, and the ref was at perhaps a 7 count. Can you find out about this match and provide some sense of the kayfabe narrative for how/why he didn’t get counted out? Was this something he pulled frequently or a one-time idea?
Well, let’s go through them and see if we can find it.
*skims Warrior’s SNME matches*
I assume that this one is the one you mean. And as you can see, Heenan distracts the ref for most of it, and then Rude breaks up the count due to him not wanting to win that way, after Heenan convinces him he can beat Warrior. Warrior does spend a lot of time outside the ring, but every time the ref is distracted, he restarts the count, as he can’t be sure that Warrior didn’t get back into the ring and then slide out again. To my knowledge Warrior didn’t make a habit of this, it was just appropriate selling at the time.
And on that cheap note, I end this edition of Ask 411 Wrestling. Hopefully next week is fully back to normal. Hopefully. Touch wood.
More Trending Stories
- Note On Possible WWE Storyline & Faction For The Creed Brothers (POSSIBLE SPOILERS)
- Tony Khan Weighs In On Warning From Oklahoma Athletic Commission Over Nyla Rose Match
- Backstage Update on WWE’s Plans for WrestleMania 41, Possible Move to March or May
- Jim Ross Recalls Dustin Rhodes Being Fired From WCW For Not Following No-Blood Policy
