411’s Buy or Sell 07.21.07: Lineup Changes, Quackenbush vs. Danielson, Can Nigel Win “The Big One”?, and more!

Ari Berenstein : SELL. In the eyes of some fans, of course, the trigger should have been pulled on the title change to McGuinness. He is the current top homegrown star for ROH besides Bryan Danielson and the whole storyline has been leading to that moment. However, as I mentioned in the ROH Roundtable for the Japan shows, there were so many factors built up in favor of keeping Morishima on top as champ (for now) that it seemed illogical (thanks Spock) to do the switch now. Why would ROH go into their champion’s homecountry and make him job out? That’s something WWE does with guys like Booker T in Houston, Texas, and we make cracks about that all the time. Plus, with Morishima as THE face of the first ROH Pay Per View (which makes its debut on InDemand cable TV networks after the Japan shows), why would ROH do a title switch now and invite confusion from whatever new fans jump aboard? I look at the sometimes friendship, sometimes rivalry between Morishima and McGuinness as continuing, with Danielson inserted as an X-factor to keep the possibility of Nigel not winning in favor of someone else out there. I have every confidence though that this story ends with Nigel McGuinness winning the ROH World Title from either man, but most likely Morishima, sometime before the end of 2007.

Stuart Carapola : SELL . I agree with Ari in that I have no doubt that Nigel’s getting the title, probably later this year, but even though I strongly suspected that he was getting the title in Japan, it’s not really that big a deal that he didn’t, and I certainly wouldn’t call it a mistake. IF there’s one thing that Homicide’s story in 2006 proved, it’s that there’s more of a fun story in the chase than the post-victory. Homicide was the hottest thing going for most of 2006 in ROH, but after he won the title, the heat totally disappeared. I know, I was there for his title defenses and they drew lukewarm at best crowd responses, even in New York. Because of this, Gabe Sapolsky may be wary of falling into the same trap with Nigel and is holding off on his title win as a result. Then again, Nigel fits the mold of a wrestling champion better than Homicide, so I could be wrong about that, but at the end of the day we all know that Nigel’s getting it eventually, and just because ROH is in a new market doesn’t mean that a title HAS to change hands.

1 for 1.

Ari Berenstein : SELL . Again, the caveat being some of the fanbase, who have already begun to make inroads to that philosophy by claiming that Nigel has already received too many title shots. I don’t understand that line of thinking-Nigel has six attempts total but only two in 2007. I’ll break that statistic down in this week’s Column of Honor (PLUG!), but he drew Danielson twice, lost outright twice. He lost outright twice to Morishima. Yet, look at it from this perspective: Nigel had the same amount of opportunities against Morishima as BJ Whitmer and Whitmer got to that number first. Does anyone think that Whitmer is more deserving of a title shot than McGuinness? I think some fans believe McGuinness doesn’t “deserve” it anymore, but they’ll get their fill of new contenders with Claudio Castagnoli, Brent Albright, Danielson and whoever wins the Race to the Top. Problem solved. As far as McGuinness being a contender again, all he needs is that one big win and he’s right in contention again. That’s not a problem in my eyes. McGuinness will be champion one day and probably soon, and he’ll work hard and win the big one.

Stuart Carapola : SELL . Nigel McGuinness is in no way, shape, or form in danger of turning into a 2007 ROH version of Lex Luger. Nigel is way over with the crowd to the point that even though the fans would probably like to see him get the title at some point, he’s popular enough that he really doesn’t need it. Here’s another thing: I’m going to again point to Homicide, who probably blew more chances to win the ROH World Title than anyone else in the history of the company, but the fans were still behind him and when he finally did win the title after nearly five years of trying, it was a huge moment, regardless of how heatless the actual title reign was. Also look at CM Punk, he had a .500 record at best, but no matter how disappointing many of his losses were, he was more over than probably anyone else in the history of the company with the possible exception of Samoa Joe, and he got a huge reaction when he won the ROH World Title after spending the entire first half of 2005 jobbing to Spanky and Jimmy Rave. I think the main thing is that, once you earn the respect of the ROH fans, it really takes a LOT for them to give up on you, and I don’t see Nigel as being anywhere near that threshold.

2 for 2.

Ari Berenstein : BUY . Well, it all depends on if you really wanted to see KENTA and CIMA team up so badly that you’re purchase of the show rode on that match. ROH replaced the dream team match with another—the so called “Best” of ROH, NOAH and Dragon Gate teaming up against Davey Richards, Rocky Romero and Mochizuki. That was the major change in the card, plus it took out the previously announced Danielson-Rave match and gave Rave a shot at the tag titles. I have a feeling those wrestlers worked really hard to make up for KENTA’s injury, which couldn’t be helped. Plus, the Japanese crowd was able to watch not one, but TWO Briscoes title matches and we know how the Japanese love themselves some Briscoes. So, yeah, it was a bit of a hectic series of changes, but better than the previous card nonetheless.

Stuart Carapola : SELL. For one, I can’t say for sure because I wasn’t in Osaka for the show and don’t know who almost any of the Japanese wrestlers on the show were. Big props to you if you knew them, but I didn’t, and I would gather that I’m not the only one. In fact, I’d be willing to bet that a majority of ROH fans, even the samrt ones, aren’t up on the Japanese scene and honestly wouldn’t be able to tell the difference. This is going to sound sacreligious to some puro fans, but they could take the same two Japanese wrestlers and stick them in different tights and send them out for every match and I’d never be able to tell the difference. Most ROH fans who are going to buy the DVD are going to do it regardless of who’s on the card and what the matches were. Actually, the one guy on this show that I definitely did know, KENTA, was not able to appear due to injury, so if I had to make a judgment based on that, I can appreciate how entertaining a wrestler KENTA is, so therefore him not being on the show lessens it in my eyes. But that’s really all I have to go on, sorry.

2 for 3.

SWITCH~!

Stuart Carapola : BUY . I never even thought of this until presented with this question, but it makes perfect sense. What better way to get the smart fans to shell out the bucks for a PPV than to have it feature a World Title change they know happened and won’t be able to see any other way for months? It makes total sense, and would absolutely explain why Morishima did not drop the ROH World Title to Nigel in Japan like I expected him to. Morishima looked strong on the first PPV and I’m told he looked great on the second, so what better way to tell his story to the PPV-only fan than by having him kill everyone in his path before dropping the title on PPV?

Ari Berenstein : BUY . I brought this up to Stu and Sam when I met them for lunch earlier in the week. I believe the ROH World title will change hands on either the third or fourth Pay Per View, depending on how long they have to use Morishima and how strong they want him to look. This also makes sense from a PPV to PPV perspective as Morishima continues to dominate the scene and defend his ROH title. I can see a rematch of the August 25th match against Danielson on the third PPV and perhaps a three way dance on the fourth with McGuinness (maybe a one on one singles match). I agree with Stu that a title change you can only witness exclusively on PPV if you were not there live will be a major selling point for the dedicated ROH fan. It seems like more and more that the PPV product may not pick up as many new fans as it will hardcore ROH fans who will buy both the DVDs and the PPVs. For a title change to happen though, that means you can see it on PPV first and not have to wait an extra month for the DVD. People will pay to see it. Yeah, that’s a bit of a cheap selling tactic to get more of your consumer dollars, but it will work.

3 for 4.

Stuart Carapola : BUY . I don’t know if I would necessarily use the results of Survival Of The Fittest to extrapolate the moral polarity of the RTTT winner, but as I look at the brackets, it definitely seems that there are more quality heels that have a shot of winning than faces. On the face side there is Claudio (who I would also not be surprised to see win), and Brent Albright can be considered a face, though I don’t know exactly what he is right now, if either. Here’s another thought, if Albright takes it then we could have our first tweener tournament winner in ROH! At the end of the day though, I have a strange feeling like Chris Hero’s taking it and I’ve thought this from the beginning. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Hero beat Claudio in the finals.

Ari Berenstein : BUY . Hehe… “moral polarity”… that’s quite amusing. I firmly side with the heels on this one, as ROH needs a good “polarizing” heel on top to stir things up. ROH hasn’t had any real shit disturber on top since…well… Chris Hero as a member of the Kings of Wrestling! And before that…Chris Hero in the CZW feud! Chris Hero is the obvious choice and I go with him barring an upset or two or perhaps the choice of Brent Albright.

4 for 5.

Stuart Carapola : SELL . I’ve heard great things about Quackenbush for years, but I don’t think he’s on the elite level yet where any match he has with anyone, no matter how good, can be considered a MOTYC. For me, a MOTYC has to be more than just a technically sound or entertaining match, it also has to have some kind of meaning, whether it be the blowoff of a big feud, a match for a title, or even just a dream match between two top guys that could go either way. There’s a lot of matches over the years that saw a top star make an undercard guy look really good, but I don’t ever remember anyone seriously considering one of those matches to be a MOTYC. If you can look beyond that then great for you, but for me there has to be some kind of importance beyond just “Yay, it was a fun match”, because if there isn’t that meaning, then that’s all it is, just a fun match.

Ari Berenstein : SELL . “Amongst” the best of the year doesn’t seem nearly so tough as “the” match of the year…until you look at the high level of match quality we’ve seen already. Briscoes vs. many teams in the tag division and against each other, Nigel vs. Morishima, Danielson vs. McGuinness, Danielson vs. KENTA, Jacobs vs. Whitmer in the cage…it’s a tough list to crack. Then again, if anyone can do it, it would be these two. However, despite how good Quackenbush is in that ring (and he is in my estimation one of the top flight wrestlers in ROH despite the few amount of times he’s been booked in the company), I think according to ROH continuity, he may be too outmatched by Dragon, who is one of the elite. I don’t think the match will be booked to get to the level everyone would expect of a MOTYC…but I would love for these two to prove me wrong.

5 for 6!

The fourteenth edition of BUY or SELL finishes at 5 for 6. Stay tuned for next week when two new men will go head to head with a whole new set of topics.