411’s Buy or Sell 12.28.07: Title Changes, Match of the Year, Talent Raids, and More!

Ari Berenstein: BUY. I’m thinking it’s the right time in the booking for The Age of the Fall to seize their opportunity and win the ROH World Tag Team Titles. I expect The Briscoes and The Age of the Fall to trade the title several times in 2008. As far as the world title situation, there is always the chance that Nigel just isn’t going to be where he is expected in terms of his health and we can see a title change, probably at the PPV. ROH has done an excellent job of making it very unpredictable what will happen but I do see that all of Nigel’s next challengers have been set up and I’m looking for him to make it into 2008 and continue to defend the belt. The FIP title has a slim to none chance of changing hands here, because Strong needs the FIP title to keep his statements credible about being better than Nigel as a champion.

Brad Garoon : SELL. Or mostly I hope sell for a couple of reasons. Most importantly I think ROH needs to get away from title switches at Final Battle. Last year and in 2004 the World title switched and in 2005 the tag titles changed hands. That being said I think 2007 is the year that this should stop happening. So could a title change hands the night before at the PPV taping? Let’s hope not. While Aries getting a second title run might entertain some (I’d hate it, personally) it is definitely a mistake for the World title to switch hands on two consecutive Pay Per Views. I also don’t think the No Remorse Corps are in the position to hold the tag team titles right now. All that said I really don’t think we’ll see a title change.

Samuel Berman: SELL. I would buy this if we were certain that the Briscoes vs. Jacobs & Black match on Sunday was for the belts, but with the stipulation still up in the air for that match, I just don’t see any of the other scheduled showdowns ending in a title change this weekend. Jacobs & Black is the ideal unit to dethrone the Briscoes, both because of the storylines and because of their in-ring acumen. For now, though I’d love to see a change in the World Title picture, I’m forced by circumstance to sell this.

Ari vs. Brad: 0 for 1
Ari vs. Samuel: 0 for 1
Brad vs. Samuel: 1 for 1

Ari Berenstein: SELL . ROH is main eventing its second to last show (a Pay Per View taping) with a marquee one on one match up and a good one at that. Considering the PPV and Final Battle are in the same market, I actually think its best for ROH to run different main events on both nights. The Four Corner match as a main event for Final Battle also has precedent, what with the very first event under that name featuring a four way match. Since we’ve got four of the top names in the company involved in the match (McGuinness / Aries winner, Danielson, Morishima and Hero), I don’t think we’ll have any problems with it living up to the standards of any ROH main event. I’m very excited and looking forward to this one.

Brad Garoon : SELL . If the four-way measures up to the elimination four-way World title match that occurred at Redemption then this will be a more than suitable main event. I don’t think a singles match is necessarily the best choice to headline the show, but I do think ROH could be well-served to think about finishing the show with the Age of the Fall vs. Briscoes match.

Samuel Berman: BUY. I’m torn here, but I’ll go the other way just for the sake of argument. While the Four Way Elimination match from 2005 was tremendous (it’s actually one of my favorite ROH matches ever) and this match has arguably as much talent, I think that at the biggest show of the year (which Final Battle has often proven to be) a one-on-one match at the top of the card is most preferable. Again, this is more about theory than it is about not liking this Four Way Elimination match in particular.

Ari vs. Brad: 1 for 2
Ari vs. Samuel: 0 for 2
Brad vs. Samuel: 1 for 2

Ari Berenstein: SELL . Unlike TNA, ROH only occasionally brings in WWE talent and when they do there is usually a very specific purpose (Bruno Sammartino puts over the company, Jim Cornette acts as ROH commissioner, Lance Storm returns from retirement to try to win the World Title) and it is usually not for a very extended period of time. Unlike in TNA, the former WWE wrestlers making special appearances have never overshadowed the consistent and hard working members of the roster. Obviously when a former WWE wrestler like James Gibson or Brent Albright make their runs in ROH its on a longer term basis, so I don’t count them here. ROH sometimes brings in wrestlers just so that the fans can get that little extra for their money’s worth, like this time around with the appearances of Luke, Sunny and Daniel Puder. I don’t see the harm in that.

Brad Garoon : BUY . The question really had nothing to do with TNA so I don’t understand why Ari is drawing that comparison here. The question is about ROH and for ROH bringing in former stars like Luke (careful boys), Sunny and Puder doesn’t actually give the fans more for their money. These former wrestlers aren’t giving away their time and autographs for free. It’s just a chance for ROH to let these guys come in and try to make an extra buck. It’s great that the former stars keep from overshadowing the product, but it doesn’t add anything to the show except money in their pockets. And on the other side of the coin how many DVDs do you think Bill Watts and Ox Baker sold based on their appearances? How many people do you hear saying they bought Glory by Honor V to see Bruno Sammartino rather than the Danielson vs. KENTA match. Few to none. ROH should focus entirely on ROH wrestlers, so unless these former WWEers are going to come in and wrestle full-time (like Albright & Gibson) I say let them sit at home.

Samuel Berman: BUY. This hinges on the use of “special appearances” here. I have no problem with Ring of Honor bringing in guys like Lance Storm and Matt Hardy to compete in the ring. ROH is a company based on competition and putting on an excellent in-ring product, and using resources like those to further promote the company are a good thing. That said, I absolutely agree with Brad that appearances by Bill Watts and Jim Cornette and Bobby Heenan really never helped the company grow. The only “special appearances” that really ever did anything for ROH in terms of advancing the product would be, in my opinion, Mick Foley and Ricky Steamboat. I think we can all agree that Sunny, Luke & Daniel Puder aren’t going to be the next additions to that list.

Ari vs. Brad: 1 for 3
Ari vs. Samuel: 0 for 3
Brad vs. Samuel: 2 for 3

SWITCH~!

Brad Garoon : BUY . Looking at my fellow writers’ ballots in the 411 Year End Awards I was saddened to see virtually nothing Japanese listed. Where’s the love for the Briscoes vs. Marvin & Suzuki in NOAH? How about KENTA & Ishimori vs. Marufuji & Iibushi from the same company? Tanahashi and Goto put on one of the best matches I’ve seen in years in New Japan and nobody said a word. Meanwhile Chuck Taylor almost wins rookie of the year and ROH matches are all over the ballots. I’m not surprised though. US Indy wrestling is much easier to come by than Japanese wrestling is. However I encourage everyone to head on over to PuroDVDSource.com and pick up the matches I mentioned. Check out YouTube and watch Tanahashi vs. Goto. These are fantastic matches and I hope in 2008 puro gets a little more love around here.

Samuel Berman: BUY . I’ll buy this because Japan is underrepresented in general, but I think that (at least on 411) it’s due to the very real fact that a small minority of our writers are puro fans. To get Japan more appropriately considered, writers and fans need to take the effort to branch out and view more matches from more different companies than they have in the past. The truth is that while other writers could take advice on some key matches to watch every year, that without working to try to keep up on some foreign companies themselves, Japan (and Mexico for that matter) will continue to be largely ignored when it comes to things like Year End Awards voting.

Ari Berenstein: BUY . I’ll have Brad reminded that I in fact did vote for Briscoes vs. Suzuki & Marvin as my number two match of the year, industry-wide, for 2007. Oh, and Tanahashi vs. Nagata III was my third choice. So some people (me! ..ahem…) are in fact paying attention…but unfortunately, even in 2007 not everyone in the U.S. is capable of or even cares to follow the Japanese scene. You know what though–that’s fine by me. I don’t think anyone should be forced to follow something they’re not into. The fact of the matter is WWE is number one by a wide margin in terms of exposure, so results are going to reflect that paradigm. However, this year we have seen ROH start to increase its exposure to the mainstream fans via PPV, and lo and behold, more matches and wrestlers from ROH are getting their due come year-end awards. Hopefully this will eventually happen for the England and Japanese markets. I do think that wrestling fans should be open to giving different types of wrestling a try, including what’s going on in Japan and the rest of the international scene.

Ari vs. Brad: 2 for 4
Ari vs. Samuel: 1 for 4
Brad vs. Samuel: 3 for 4

Brad Garoon : BUY . My answer is conditional based on what you consider a major talent. I could see a guy like Cross getting picked up by TNA after a good run in NOAH, but he’s hardly a major talent in ROH. If WWE were smart they’d snap up Castagnoli like they were about to last year and do the same with McGuinness. For our sakes (we being ROH fans) I hope we get a solid World title run from Castagnoli before that happens. Oh, and I guess I could see Albright getting called back to WWE, but I have a feeling his second run would be similar to the first and we’d see him back in ROH before the end of the year.

Samuel Berman: BUY . I can’t remember the last year where a major (or at the very least upper mid-card) player from ROH didn’t make a move to either WWE or TNA. Though some feel that the new talent contracts will stand in the way of future talent raids, I remain skeptical that any one of a number of key players wouldn’t still jump at the opportunity to move up the ladder into one of the two televised American companies. Claudio and Nigel remain the biggest flight risks, simply due to their size and style, but don’t sleep on guys like Chris Hero or Delirious ending up with a developmental deal in 2008 as well.

Ari Berenstein: BUY . It’s become an unfortunate state of reality but every year a wrestler who made their mark in Ring of Honor decides to move on (or has the situation forced upon them). I think it’s natural and fair that wrestlers get the chance to test the waters. However, I do think that the talent contracts are an added incentive for most of the ROH wrestlers to stick around. I think if the economics of the situation works that most of the talent signed to contracts w ill renew. At the least a few who may have left in years where there weren’t contracts will think twice if they get the itch to leave. My guess is that this year there will be someone who leaves, but as usual ROH will continue to march onward.

Ari vs. Brad: 3 for 5
Ari vs. Samuel: 2 for 5
Brad vs. Samuel: 4 for 5

Brad Garoon : BUY . I was saying this when it was first announced that the FIP belt would be defended in ROH. The fact that he was a babyface champion in FIP and a heel in ROH really bothered me. This is the reason I don’t like angles bleeding into other companies. Now is actually the only proper time for the FIP title to be defended in ROH because FIP is on hiatus and will probably come back different than it was when it left. I wouldn’t be surprised if Strong turned heel when FIP returns. At any rate though the FIP title isn’t over in ROH so when the Florida-based company comes back I’m hoping the title goes back there and stays there.

Samuel Berman: SELL. In some ways I agree that the two companies should be kept somewhat separate. That said, I see the value for ROH in promoting FIP as its sister promotion and especially in the current climate keeping FIP on fans’ radar while the company goes through something of a reboot. Defending the belt on ROH shows has (at least for Roderick Strong specifically) allowed the FIP World Heavyweight Title to be challenged for by a number of world-class talents that might not have otherwise appeared for FIP. In that way, it certainly has helped to build the prestige of the title and enabled many more defenses than would have been otherwise possible. To some degree, it’s akin to the ROH World Title being defended on Pro Wrestling NOAH shows while Takeshi Morishima was holding the strap. If done appropriately, it does nothing but elevate the title.

Ari Berenstein: BUY . I hated the decision then and I hate it still. I think its ridiculous that the FIP title continues to be defended on ROH shows when its plainly obvious that it would not change hands on an ROH show. You telegraph a finish and limit the number of outs you can take in order to keep Strong’s opponent strong. The only way the FIP title changes hands on an ROH show in 2008 is if its during the Wrestlemania weekend shows and that is still a slap in the face to the loyal FIP fan who has been attending shows down in Florida all this time. I don’t agree that the FIP title gained any prestige exclusively from Strong having it and defending it on ROH shows. In fact just the opposite, I think Strong having the belt for a year and having strong defenses in FIP itself got that belt over. Just because Strong defended the title in England and gave it “World” title status doesn’t mean it was any more important to the average joe ROH fan. It remains a trophy title for Strong in ROH. I have always questioned why ROH dropped the Pure title just as it was succeeding in becoming a prestigious title. The fact that the FIP title rules were changed to resemble the Pure rules (20 counts, title can change hands on a count out or DQ) just further annoyed me. I agree with Brad, give this belt the boot. Bring back the ROH Pure Title!

Ari vs. Brad: 4 for 6
Ari vs. Samuel: 2 for 6
Brad vs. Samuel: 4 for 6

SWITCH~!

Samuel Berman: BUY . I’ve been banging the drum on this match since about a minute-and-a-half after it ended and it would be disingenuous at best for me to turn on it now. In what to me is the best tag team match in ROH history, the Briscoes were able to establish their fourth title reign as something special. While Jay & Mark have taken part in a number of classic matches in the past, this contest was head-and-shoulders above any of their other ROH outings, and a true indication of how good American tag team action can be. Long tag team contests are not all that out of the ordinary in Japan, but in the United States it’s rare to see two teams go past the twenty-five minute mark, let alone hit thirty-five minutes of action before the final bell rings. The Briscoes, along with Alex Shelley & Chris Sabin (who I have astoundingly not mentioned, but deserve an equally heaping portion of praise), were able to combine their physical talents with transcendent in-ring storytelling to create something truly special in this match, and its position as my Match of the Year is a comment on its greatness and not on something lacking in the many other outstanding matches this year.

Ari Berenstein: SELL . I’ve repeatedly stated my criticisms of this match, so I don’t want to go into them in-depth here. As much as I want to get into this match and think of it on the level of Sam or Brad, I just can’t. I have issues with the heel and face alignment of the teams in this match, namely that Motor City Machine Guns try to be heel in the first half but then go into face comeback mode in the second half. Again I state that I like this match and don’t think its horrible in any way shape or form, just that it isn’t match of the year in my book. There are several other matches I think surpass this one in terms of quality of work and storyline being told, among them being my number one choice for match of the year…but ah, that would be telling. Sorry to be a tease, but you’ll have to catch Final Column 2007 to find out my choice for number one.

Brad Garoon : BUY . Though, I don’t agree with either of you on every point. The first thing I disagree with is Ari’s shameful Final Column plug. However since he’s already done it I will too, so everyone head on over to The Cool Kids’ Table. Okay, back to the topic at hand. From day to day I have trouble deciding between the above-mentioned match and Danielson vs. McGuinness as my Match of the Year. Yes in my reviews I rated the tag team match higher than the singles bout but star ratings also fluctuate slightly all the time in my mind. Both matches are deserving of all of the praise they’ve received. I have to argue that Ari’s criticism of the tag match is somewhat overly smarky. The fact that a team is made up of bad guys shouldn’t mean that the good guys can’t possibly beat them down to the point that they’d have to make a comeback. It’s not like they Sabin jumped into the crowd and begged them for support halfway into the match. Either way there are days that I truly believe that this match was the best ROH had to offer this year, and there are others when I think that honor goes to McGuinness vs. Danielson. In the end both were eclipsed by Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Hirooki Goto in New Japan so the argument is unnecessary in my book.

Ari vs. Brad: 4 for 7
Ari vs. Samuel: 2 for 7
Brad vs. Samuel: 5 for 7

Samuel Berman: SELL . If anything, I’m concerned that Pro Wrestling Guerrilla may have taken something of a step backwards in 2007. While the company continued to put on excellent matches and had another successful installment of the Battle of Los Angeles Tournament, PWG continues to be plagued by what seems to be a lack of foresight in terms of its titles and long-term booking. Injuries, no-shows and talent pulls left the promotion scrambling to re-book a number of events this year, a group of issues that seemed to cause less trouble for my pick for the number two Independent promotion: CHIKARA. CHIKARA experienced a true boom this year, with great efforts from reliable veterans like Chris Hero, Claudio Castagnoli and Mike Quackenbush combining with a group of talented newcomers like Chuck Taylor, Lince Dorado and Tim Donst to create a truly special season of action. From the fabulous Eddie Kingston vs. Hallowicked feud to the commercial release of the company’s first ‘Best of CHIKARA’ compilation, CHIKARA is doing nothing but solidly expanding with each passing show. It is certainly close in terms of ranking CHIKARA and PWG amongst the top Independent companies, but from where I sit, CHIKARA seems to have leapfrogged into the second spot.

Ari Berenstein: BUY . Well, let’s break it down by process of elimination. IWA:MS remains too low on the radar despite some terrific events…and it ran into money problems again this year. CHIKARA did in fact make great strides in terms of exposure, quality of storyline and in ring action. They have a terrific balance of comedy and wrestling action. They also had a DVD released to national retail. However, aside from one show in Connecticut and a few small and unadvertised local college shows, they have never really run anywhere besides Pennsylvania. FIP is the kid sister of ROH and as such it can’t be number one. Although they’ve had increased attendance and the benefit of ROH talent, I just can’t shake the feeling that they are the Triple A to ROH’s major leagues. So by process of elimination, it has to be PWG. Sure they only run in SoCal, but they are the only company out of all of those mentioned above that went international this year, running a European tour. They have a great mix of local talent, top name independent wrestlers and international wrestlers, thanks to an increased relationship with Dragon Gate. While they may start late, have unexpected delays of product and whatnot, they still deliver top notch action in the ring, have different storylines than other promotions and have the talent roster to continue to be successful in 2008. Or, they have become the second biggest independent out of simply surviving better than the other independents out there.

Brad Garoon : BUY . In actuality I think that PWG became the second biggest indy company by default in 2006 when hard times struck CZW and IWA Mid-South. I kind of attacked Ari on that last question so this time it’s Sam’s turn. The idea that CHIKARA is the number two indy promotion in the company is almost laughable, and another example of my claim that Sam is blinded by his love for the company. Injuries and no-shows are hardly a sign of a low-tier indy company, especially when that company routinely sells out their DVDs and has successful overseas tours. This year they even had to add a third show to their European weekend .In Sam’s argument for CHIKARA he mentioned the strong Kingston vs. Hallowicked feud while ignoring PWG’s strong and long-running angles; Human Tornado vs. Chris Hero, El Generico’s stellar run with the PWG title and the Dynasty’s continued treachery. As Ari mentioned the inclusion of big-name indy talent (something CHIKARA only sparingly employs) as well as the top stars from Dragon Gate and regular AJPW wrestlers Kaz Hayashi & NOSAWA alone make PWG a bigger promotion than CHIKARA. The only thing that CHIKARA has going for it in this argument is their DVD sold in retail stores. I simply don’t see that eclipsing the influence that comes from the big name talent flown into PWG shows. Sam, if from where you sit CHIKARA has leapfrogged PWG then you must be sitting in the dark.

Ari vs. Brad: 5 for 8
Ari vs. Samuel: 2 for 8
Brad vs. Samuel: 5 for 8

Samuel Berman: BUY . Ring of Honor’s move to Pay-Per-View puts me over the top on this one, but I would have very seriously considered pushing if that were an option. 2006 saw ROH’s first real expansion to the U.K. and the development of the product to arguably its creative height for the war with CZW. In addition we saw Bryan Danielson’s tremendous ROH World Title reign and the fantastic build to Homicide’s title win. In 2007, ROH has further expanded to Japan and the West Coast of the United States, but both trips had their issues with Tokyo and Osaka having simply average in-ring products and Las Vegas and San Francisco drawing abnormally small crowds for ROH live shows. A number of key players left Ring of Honor in 2007 as well, with Samoa Joe, Colt Cabana, Homicide, Christopher Daniels and Matt Sydal all leaving to work full time in other promotions. That said, debuting talent like Kevin Steen, El Generico, Mike Quackenbush and Tyler Black have been quick to impress the ROH faithful, carving out solid spots on the roster. Clearly the biggest news this year was the announcement that Ring of Honor would debut on Pay-Per-View, and so on the strength of that development I will say that 2007 was an improvement on 2006 for ROH.

Ari Berenstein: BUY . No doubt about it from me on this one, although 2006 was amazing, 2007 was even more so for ROH. Look at where they could have ended up thanks to losing the TNA talent and then realize just how much they’ve succeeded creatively and in terms of business. ROH expanded the number of locations they have run, repeating a trip to England, debuting with two shows in Japan, going to California and Nevada. In the ring you had even more quality matches than the previous year and several heated feuds such as Briscoes vs. Steen / Generico and the Dragon / Morishima / McGuinness rivalry that you could argue were as compelling as ROH vs. CZW. All that combined with the debut of the promotion on PPV and its obvious that inside and outside the ring 2007 was massive for ROH. By no means was it perfect, but yes, 2007 was a better year than even the great year that was 2006 for ROH.

Brad Garoon : BUY . You guys pretty much said it all. I agree.

Ari vs. Brad: 6 for 9
Ari vs. Samuel: 3 for 9
Brad vs. Samuel: 6 for 9

The thirty-sixth edition of BUY or SELL featuring our first-ever Three Way Dance finishes with Ari & Brad at 6 for 9, Ari & Samuel at 3 for 9, and Brad & Samuel at 6 for 9. Stay tuned for next week when we return to our usual format and two new men will go head to head with a whole new set of topics.