Five-Star Conversation 10.07.08: Comparing Today’s Raw Main Event With That of a Decade Ago

THOUGHT OF THE DAY: AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN DRAW A PARALLEL BETWEEN SARAH PALIN AND SOUTH PARK’S MAYOR…?

WWF: FINAL FOUR REVISITED
Drawing parallels will be the main theme of our conversation this week. Last week we discussed Raw’s current main event scene and the fact that there are a veritable plethora of top level talent who could easily vie for the World Title:

Chris Jericho, (C)
Shawn Michaels (former #1 contender)
Batista (new #1 contender)
John Layfield (lost #1 contention match last Sunday)
CM Punk (most recent former champion, never actually lost the belt)
Randy Orton (the reason, along with his cohorts, why Punk is no longer champion)

And some kind readers actually added Kane and Rey Mysterio into the mix, too, although considering the slipshod booking surrounding their program, it’s a safe bet that these two are pretty well treading water until they’re “needed” at the top level.

And that, I think is the basic crux of why we’re seeing so much action at the top of the card at the moment, and it’s a SMART MOVE on the part of McMahonagement; they’d been burned before when unforeseen injuries and/or a multitude of Wellness infractions crippled a roster. I recall when I was doing The SmackDown! R’s when the first round of pee tests came back…suffice to say, Dr. Black went over his minutes that month notifying myriad performers of their suspensions.

Too, Larry and I both have long carried the “Fuck The Brand Split” flag and I think one of the reasons why we experienced such a deluge of inter-brand fraternization was because McMahonagement was learning to accommodate the unexpected.

It seems to me the most recent Draft was an extremely shrewd and multi-layered one, as it not only beefed up an anemic SD! to bolster its move from The CW to MyNetwork TV without short-changing Raw, as well as bringing some experienced hands to guide the largely rookie-based WWECW, but the both main rosters appear to be stacked in the event of past catastrophes, such as Wellness fouls or long-term injuries. Just imagine the abject panic that would have plagued booking meetings had John Cena’s injury occurred one or two years ago? It strikes me that we have a wealth of viable main event talent in place in case the situation warrants just such contingencies, and that’s an EXCELLENT managerial move.

Of course, the flip side of that coin is, with the vast majority of talent both healthy and behaving, now we have find shit for ‘em all to DO in a limited amount of time each week, and that’s just the main event scene; we still have the IC and Women’s Titles about which to be concerned. Oh, yeah, and there’s those Tag Title thingies too, but, really, who cares about THOSE anymore? (Please recognize the sarcasm implicit in that sentence!)

It was suggested in the comments section last week that I was complaining about the number of main-eventers currently on Raw, but that was far from my intention; rather, I was actually marveling at the quantity of such, especially considering SD! isn’t suffering as a consequence. My intention was more along the lines of having a look to see how effectively such talent is being utilized, which I’d like to briefly update following the events of NO MERCY:

Y2J successfully defending against HBK, which I feel is the right move; I want to see The ShowStoppa with the strap again at some point, but Jericho is so hot right now, considering he’s returned to WWE to evolve to a new level and is the company’s #1 heel, keeping him on top is far better a move than having him drop the belt to HBK. (There is, however, a comment regarding this subject I’ll address later, whose sentiment I share greatly, but all in due time.) Batista defeated JBL in a #1 Contender’s match, which puts Big Dave pretty well back where he was a few months ago when the whole Y2J/HBK feud started up…the question is, will HBK be involved? If so, how and in what capacity? We have an interesting dichotomy potentially brewing, because HBK’s concern goes well above & beyond the belt, whereas Batista REALLY NEEDS this title win to remain considered a viable main event talent in the eyes of many, else he be considered “Mr. Close But No Cigar”. One wonders if HBK will eventually cost Y2J the championship such that their program can continue apart from the belt, leaving Dave the opportunity to take the belt in another direction…?

There was a curious exchange between MVP and randy Orton at the PPV, and, despite the “Boring” chants, it read as quite interesting, although I don’t think we’re going to see anything come of it, IE, MVP jumping over to Raw; rather, this seemed to me to be a means to get MVP and Orton on the show in a non-wrestling capacity and to give some wheels to the CM Punk & Kofi Kingston/SIMPLY PRICELESS tag program that, one must assume, will eventually see Punk graduate to dealing with Orton once he’s medically cleared from his stupidity injury.

(Incidentally, many are bemoaning the perceived demotion of Punk to accommodate this program, and I have to admit, there’s something in me that mistrusts whether we’re actually going to see a pay-off between Punk and Orton…I just have a feeling that Orton will be a lot closer to the WT than will be Punk by then and that Punk will be circumnavigating the title scene in a wider orbit. Still, though, I don’t think this is a purposeful demotion for Punk so much as it is attempting to give Kingston a Punk rub…wow, that sounded dirty…as well to further establish UNTOUCHABLE apart from Orton. I have to think McMahonagement feels strongly about pushing the 2nd & 3rd generation rookies, and so this is a priority feud, even if it seems otherwise to the average fan.)

This leaves JBL, who, from what I managed to infer from Larry’s NO MERCY report, seemed almost to be giving a post-match “See ya” heel exit promo. Considering as beaten down as he is (it’s my opinion for a couple of reasons that he shouldn’t even BE competing), combined with his Wall Street ties, the current state of the economy is the perfect means by which to pull him off the active Rawster for a bit. If we had a thin amount of top talent, why then fine, I can see the need for his active involvement, but we’re currently stacked, so why not give the guy some time off to rest and heal that back of his and to pimp his marijuana drink?

The whole impetus for this discussion last week was when I drew parallels between the current Raw product and the overall WWF product back in late 1996-early 1997 when we had a similar such wealth of main event talent roster featuring:

Shawn Michaels
Sid
Bret Hart
The Undertaker
Steve Austin
Vader

HBK’s boyhood dream came to an abrupt end at the SURVIVOR SERIES when Sid attacked Michaels’ trainer and mentor Jose Lothario with a TV camera during the match, distracting HBK from defending his belt, thus causing him to lose it. At the same PPV, Hart narrowly defeated Austin by using Austin’s Million Dollar Dream to pin Stone Cold by falling back on him, his weight pinning Austin to the mat, thus earning The Hitman the #1 Contender’s spot.

In a move which stands to be as poorly visualized then by McMahonagement as it does in retrospect (Let me state VERY OPENLY right now that I absolutely HATE Sid for several reasons), Sid was allowed to go over BOTH HBK AND Hart as the champion. Of course, Hart and HBK were too worried about each other, because it was during this time that Hart apparently disclosed his personal feelings with regard to the poor manner he felt HBK carried the HWT since WM12, the spark that ignited the wildfire that, in Hart’s mind, STILL burns, thus giving Sid a decided advantage.

Meanwhile, Austin still had The Hitman in HIS sites, claiming that “it’ll never be over between us…you’ll have to KILL me first!,” and so, Stone Cold was ever-present, interfering in Hart’s matches, as well. As a result, it was during this period that Hart’s crybaby image was fostered, making him appear that, because the legend had returned, these younger punks should be showering him with respect, as opposed to looking to notch their proverbial guns and establish/further their own careers at his expense, either in direct or indirect fashion.

Having defeated both HBK and Hart, Sid, belt in hand, crashed a face-to-face promo between the two former champions and demanded greater competition. GONG! (Or, if you’d prefer, BONG!, or DONG!…whatever suits you, I don’t judge.) The Undertaker, who had been out of the championship loop threw his proverbial hat in the proverbial ring, with Vader following closely behind. (Incidentally, the December PPV which followed SURVIVOR SERIES, IN YOUR HOUSE, was subtitled “IT’S TIME”, which seemed to imply a greater role for The Rocky Mountain Grizzly Bear, but that wasn’t to occur, for reasons I’ve never managed to suss out…anyone got any incite?)

At the ROYAL RUMBLE, HBK regained his HWT from Sid in much the same as he lost it, with Michaels walloping Sid with a camera on the sly, gaining retribution for his fallen mentor (who, by the way, had “suffered” a minor heart attack as a consequence of Sid’s actions, thus legitimizing HBK’s heel-ish actions), while, elsewhere, in the Rumble match itself, Austin dominated, eliminating about 32 people in under an hour before Hart, himself, scored a measure of personal revenge by eliminating Austin. However, the refs at ringside were too busy attempting to separate Mick “Mankind” Foley and Terry Funk, who were brawling on the other side of the ring, therefore, none of them witnessed Austin’s elimination, so Austin simply jumped back in the ring, dumped Taker, Vader and Hart to “win” the match and a trip to WrestleMania, much, of course, to Hart’s growing chagrin.

The following month was to have seen HBK defend his HWT on PPV, but, in the infamous “Lost my smile” promo, HBK tearfully relinquished his newly-won championship belt, citing a long-nagging-turned-career-threatening knee injury as the reason, although more than once or twice has the suggestion been made that HBK simply refused to drop the belt to Hart, who was to have been his challenger in February. I’m apt to believe a little of both.

The concept for the February’s PPV main event was to be a Fatal Fourway match among Austin, Taker, Vader and Hart to decide a WrestleMania opponent for HBK, as a result of the tantrum thrown by Hart over Austin’s actions in The Rumble match, as well as Austin’s insistence that, because The WWF didn’t employ the instant replay rule, that he should retain all rights and privileges of a Rumble winner. Neo-Tunney Gorilla Monsoon decided that the only fair option was to recreate the last moments of The Rumble and let the chips fall where they may. HBK’s relinquishing of the belt, though, necessitated the Fatal Fourway to be not just a match of top contention, but for the HWT itself, with Sid, who never received a rematch against HBK following THE RUMBLE, was to be allowed just such against the Fourway match the night following the PPV.

It’s been my experience that Austin was actually penciled in to walk with his first World championship that night (and I recall watching this PPV and being convinced, too, that his time had come), however, the first of the many injuries that would plague him throughout his WWF/E career occurred (the first knee brace appeared on his leg not long following this bit of history), thus encouraging McMahonagement to go with Hart, which must have really sat well with The Hitman, knowing he was third choice at this time, and actually fourth if you want to consider that Sid did, indeed, defeat him for the belt the next night on Raw. Or, if you REALLY want to go there, FIFTH, as The Undertaker eventually became the #1 Contender for WM, defeating Sid for the belt.

(Of course, Hart has nothing about which to be ashamed, as he and Austin stole the show with, not only the clear match of the night, but one of the best matches in WM’s rich history, in the Submission match against Austin, where, not only did they tear down the house, but managed one of the most precarious feats in the business, the simultaneous double-turn!)

And so, in sum, do the main-eventers of today’s Raw stand to have their names be held in the same esteem as the ones who lit up the pre-Attitude Era of a decade ago? Discuss!

COMMENTPALOOZA!
“Assclownery” may be the best new word since “truthiness”. As far as the Casa Bonita goes, I prefer booths to tables. 🙂

Posted By: The Great Capt. Smooth (Guest)

Why thank you, Schmoove! I’d used that previously in The R’s, but I thought I’d give it a debut in 5SC. Why, a creative fellow might utilize the same process and come up with a myriad of new words, nincompoopery being a favorite of mine.

And BTW, we have a table by the cliff divers…close enough to enjoy the show, but not SO close that we end up with moist taquitos…that, too, sounded dirty…

Toddo offers a fantastic comment:

It’s odd how with the Raw Main Event being as unpredictable as it ever has, it doesn’t feel any different than it did a year ago. What you are saying kind of harkens back to last weeks column, in regards to what Heyman said about the product needing a kick in the ass.

I never thought I would say it, because I am literally a life long fan of wrestling, and more specifically, WWE wrestling, but everything seems so vanilla lately.

Good eye, Toddo, yes, I’m attempting to maintain the consistency of the column’s theme of conversation, attempting to guide the discussions in a natural manner, such that we not only achieve a measure of flow, but might, too, upon reflection, begin to notice patterns or measures of consistency within the product we’d heretofore forgotten or unwittingly shined.

In the second paragraph, I was thinking, “Oh, you mean TNA…?” and then you went on to mention that yourself. Just wanted to confirm that I’m totally with you in your mode of thinking and you’re bang on!

You’re seeing this amazing opportunity and acting accordingly, in terms of Lance Cade. McMahonagement has had the foresight to utilize the HBK/Cade connection in conjunction with the Y2J program, and so, thus, it’s tailor-made to involve a foil for Cade; therefore, not only do we have a phenomenal main event that tells its own story, the opportunity to allow Cade and another similar youngster to benefit from this feud exists, as well…let’s hope something comes of it and the ball isn’t dropped in this respect, because I’m actually starting to buy Cade as a solo performer.

The one thing I liked so much about the whole Fatal Fourway deal was that all of those men were orbiting closely around the belt, all interfering with one another, trading wins and losses, thus making any and all of them viable candidates for the belt, lending a great quality of unpredictability and excitement to the proceedings that, as you point out, is absent in a lot of today’s show, despite a wealth of talent involved. You’re quite correct in having corrected me, “they are not really clamoring at all.” Does this devalue the belt…?

The tired Internet trope that legitimate criticism of a product/company is “hating” or “crapping on” needs to be retired. No organization is perfect and real critiques can be offered. For example, the WWE’s devaluation of the tag team titles has weakened the quality of its product. If these titles somehow regained their prestige, then midcard wrestlers would have more meaningful feuds and reasons for being on the roster.

Posted By: Iron Knee (Guest)

Absolutely and well said! Do I smell a column topic in that comment…?

I like the fact there’s so many main eventers. Keeps the match-ups fresh and it does give a rub to some of the mid to lower guys like Lance Cade, Kofi and Simply Priceless when they’re involved in a bigger storyline in some way. The only one I can see it’s hurting is Batista because he continues to look like a guy who can’t win the big one but that’s really been his modus operandi for the past three years.

Posted By: Jay (Guest)

Obviously, based upon the body of the column, I agree to a point. It’s a good thing to have so many viable performers ready and willing to vie for the belt, but, as Vince himself proved, it can be done better and in a more entertaining fashion if the goal is really to give one the sense that everyone wants the belt…and if they aren’t, what are they doing there?

There seems to be a growing conundrum among fans, I’m seeing, in Batista’s regard, in that some feel he’s becoming the new Triple H (‘nuff said?) and others seeing him, as I said earlier, as Mr. Close But No Cigar, neither of which is going to serve The Animal in good stead. As I’ve stated in the past, I’m keeping a closer eye on Batista’s Raw progress and will hopefully be coming to a solid conclusion soon…

Great column, as usual, Geoff! I look forward to this column every week, and you have yet to disappoint…Keep it up, and have a wonderful week!

Posted By: Tammy (Guest)

Thanks, Tammy! I love the fact that we have a lady in the house…gives the place tone. =o)

“There will always be stupid people, because, unfortunately, fucking is a relatively simple exercise to figure out and there’s plenty of good-looking, bored, stupid people to propagate the race of idiocy (therefore ensuring a new race of Hulkamaniacs)”

Posted By: pKon (Guest)

Sorry, folks, that was simple self-edification, but it’s encouraging to know that others feel the same way about Hogan as I do. Rock on, pKon!

No this is a GOOD thing with love to DDP. Guys are getting hurt ALOT these days, something I HOPE is being worked on without compromising too much. That said, multiple main eventers can help keep one another better “rested” and maybe cut down on injuries. Multiple main eventers also allows for more inclusion of mid level talent to see if theyre ready to advance or target flaws in ones performance to be worked on.

Posted By: CM Wolf (Guest)

Right on, Wolf, and thanks for bringing up something I’d neglected to mention, that a greater number of main-eventers can then facilitate the likelihood of mid- to upper-mid-card talent having the chance to “audition” for a larger role in the company, as well as looking for ways to improve their performance such that, when they do get elevated, their act will be stronger. Just because the main event scene is bursting at the proverbial seams at the moment doesn’t mean we can neglect grooming the next generation to come up!

Im all for this new tweener role Orton is being booked in, he isnt really being boo’ed as of yet because he only kicked Generic Indy Guy in the head. With Cena out they could fast track a full on Orton face turn and possibly destroy everything (lets hope not) or just keep him in this “I am better than everyone, heel or face”.

Posted By: Brad (Guest)

Thank you! I’m still out on the whole Orton tweener thing, though. I want to believe he can pull it off, but I just have a sneaky suspicion that he’s only going to appeal to that corner of the audience who are dicks and like to cheer the heels just to piss off The Chain Gang. What WOULD work, I think, is if Cena were still around and we saw UNTOUCHABLE jumping Cena, while still tormenting Punk. That quality of balance goes a long way in establishing a niche audience for a performer, but we’ll see what happens and hope for the best!

My buddy Crucial‘s comment pretty well speaks for itself:

I don’t think that Geoff was complaining strictly because there are too many main event superstars. It’s always good for the WHT scene to have some variety. I think he was complaining because there are so many main event players in the title scene and none of them really have a clear sense of direction.

Posted By: Crucial (Guest)

Thank you, pimp! It WAS great to chat…and not just because I’ve managed to glean two columns’ worth of material from that conversation…so far!

I think the thing nobody’s realizing is that the Val Venis push is right around the corner. They’ve been letting him lay low for a while, but if you remember– in Right to Censor he was the only guy with the white pants, so clearly they saw something special in him… and they’ve kept him around this long just so everyone would forget about RTC and their People who Say Epic Theme Music. Now that they have, Chief Morley is ready to come back with a vengeance as Arnolyster Stalleneger.

Posted By: M:-X (Guest)

It strikes me that a tag team between Val Venis (who has always been grossly underutilized) and Dolph Zeigler makes a lot of sense and could be a great way to introduce the character, both in terms of a new talent being brought up, as well as a new character. Although we’d gracefully ignore the fact that he’s already technically a former tag champ, I think the two characters have a lot in common and the break up of the student thinking he knows more than the teacher is already built in.

I’d say it’s the fact that much of the main event scene are guys who, I’m personally a bit tired of seeing around it. Batista, JBL, Kane, and Mysterio just seem to flounder around, and I can’t realistically see any of them winning the Heavyweight Championship anytime soon. It just gets tired when it’s the same guys over and over again.

Posted By: Hugo (Guest)

Thanks to you, Hugo! I understand greatly what you mean about the same-old-face-factor, especially when they seem to serve the sole purpose of being foil to the real stars. JBL is a fantastic heel…I can’t remember the last time I’ve experienced a heel who truly makes me want to hate him solely based upon what is a character, conceived and performed to perfection, like, we’re talking Roddy Piper hate and annoyance. It’s a shame the guy’s so crap in the ring and that he didn’t hit his stride till he was old and broken down. He could have been a true legend.

Poor Rey. One of the worst things that could have happened to him was to become World Champion and be given a shit run, because now few buy him if he’s not hovering around the main event, yet others don’t think he has what it takes for a second run, which leaves him exactly…where…? Floundering, just as Hugo said (although this mentoring role for Evan Bourne is a good start away from all that!).

I personally am intrigued about Batista challenging Jericho for the belt. Can Y2J work successfully against a man of such size, strength and intensity? And I still wonder of HBK will be done with the champ…and where does Cade fit into all this…?

what gets OLD is the constant harping on the same six points… consensus opinions are not cool as they provide for very little discussion. Also they just show how everyone gets trained to be the same kind of monkey and how fun is THAT?!

Posted By: Mad Monkey… from SPACE! (Guest)

I have to agree, but then that’s the partial fault of the columnists for not having a fresh take on the product, even if it’s stale. In criticizing the product in such a fashion, we columnists find ourselves as guilty as those whom we criticize. That’s where you guys come in…keep me honest, k?

Jericho is probably my favorite wrestler, but it was a mistake to put the belt on him. Even without the belt his feud with the Heartbreak Kid was the best thing going on Raw – the belt doesn’t add anything to it.

Posted By: Pat Shepard (Guest)

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes! While I’ll acquiesce to the belt being involved, I DO believe, too, that, as Pat said, the belt IS a story unto itself and that, in this instance, especially, it added nothing to the pre-existing story between HBK and Y2J.

It’s Pat’s mode of thinking that I wish The WWF had employed back in the day in Hogan’s regard. There was NO REASON to allow him to hog the belt and, thereby, disallow several other world champion level performers the honor and opportunity to be champions. The Hulkamaniacs would have still bought tickets and PPVs to support their man, PLUS there would be a separate main event involving the title…it makes sense to me…

My man Schmoove just couldn’t stay away:

Geoff, concerning the Raw main event scene, it is a bit confusing, but I have the feeling that they might be building into an all out war. I’ve noticed in the past couple of months that little connections have formed between many of the wrestlers. Let’s start with HBK vs. Y2J. Y2J has also had issues with Punk. Punk has had issues with Cody and Ted Jr. Cody and Ted Jr. have had issues with Cryme Tyme. Cryme Tyme has them with Miz and Morrison. M and M have had issues with Bourne and Ortiz. Bourne has an ally with Rey. Rey has issues with Kane and has a friendship with Batista. Batista has problems with Santino and JBL. JBL is mad at Haas for impersonating him. Haas and Santino could be the comedy stars of each group. The best part is that this doesn’t even include a returning Orton or the potential return of Cena. While we’re at it, we still have Manu, Kofi, and Cade who have a connection to add to the mix. I doubt that this war will happen, but if it does, it could be the biggest thing done in terms of scope since the Invasion.

Interesting notion, and it could be a good way to involve virtually the entire upper tier of the Rawster (and even some of WWECW!), but I doubt we’ll see this occur, even if it could be a lot of fun. Just be careful for what you ask…remember how that whole InVasion thing worked out…

Thegun fittingly sums up at this week’s end:

The column itself was very positive regarding the current state of the WWE in the mind of the bay area genius. I would agree. I like the current direction of the product although I don’t fully grasp where this direction is headed.

The 25th WM is coming up. I would love to see the work that is being laid now leading to a great show at WMXXV. The booking at this point is making me hungry for more E and that makes me a happy gunslinger.

I’m hesitant to suggest you were referring to me as a genius…who did you mean…? You know I’ve lived in LA for a decade now and was only in San Francisco for three…?

I agree that it’s frustrating to consider where we’re going with all of this and not have a solid clue. It’s one thing to be surprised by logical and brilliant twists and turns, but in the end, find yourself saying, “OHHH! I didn’t see that coming but it TOTALLY makes sense!” while still feeling as if you have a solid handle on the product. It’s times such as these that we hope for the best, enjoy that which we love and ignore/cross fingers for that which we don’t, and try to have faith that we won’t just see a bland story lead to a standard blow-off that’s not allowed enough time to make it work, or, worse, a story is allowed no closure at all. Worse yet is TNA where the writing swerves the viewer so violently and suddenly in a direction that makes no sense to such an extent that it was almost predictable.

I think we’re in a good place now. Not a great place, but it’s getting better. I still get restless at the one-hour mark of a two hour show, though.

BTW, Perfect and Warrior all the way.

Thanks for coming along again this week! See you next week in Five-Star Conversation!