wrestling / Columns

Five-Star Conversation 11.18.08: Mentors, Extreme Extinction and Comments!

November 18, 2008 | Posted by Geoff Eubanks

This was a scary weekend in Los Angeles. More wildfires, but BAD. We’ve been lucky, in that our firefighters have managed in the past to minimize the amount of structural damage and loss, but no such doing this time, thanks to single-digit humidity, a weekend of 90 degree + weather all weekend and near constant Santa Ana winds, gusting up to 70 MPH, blowing cinders in a completely random and unpredictable fashion into homes, brush, trees, etc. Remember the hundreds of people who lost literally everything they had last weekend this Thanksgiving and send up a little love, please?

THOUGHT OF THE DAY: Without context, I am irrelevant. That’s the thought I contemplated before I fell asleep last night. Good times…

THE WRESTLING EQUIVALENT OF BIG BROTHERS
Thanks to reader JMAC, whose comment last week inspired this piece.

As WWE continues to forage ahead, finding, training and grooming its own young talent in the wake of the demise of the old school Territories (Vince’s own doing), it continues to bank on certain youngsters to be, pardon the pun, The Next Big Thing with varied results.

The first real “graduating” class of WWE’s own developmental system are doing more or less quite well and are synonymous with the company’s high card: Cena, Orton, Batista, Benjamin. However, in each case (Lesnar’s, too), once these men debuted, they were also paired up with at least one veteran to help, not only introduce them to the fans, but to give them a personalized “advanced lesson” to the business, having graduated to the big time, partnerships which appear to have paid off, insofar as taking these bright young stars to the next level; what happened from there may be a different story…which could be why we see WWE dropping the proverbial ball in this regard now…yet still appear to shrug its shoulders, asking, “Wha’happened…?”

I may get a little shit for this, but I freaking LOVED Brock Lesnar. Here is an example of someone whose amateur skills shown through early on and only improved as time wore on, although, in fairness, Lesnar was kept down in developmental until such time as he really “got it” and could really had all the basics down before being brought up. At such time, he was paired up with a genius like Paul Heyman to teach him the advanced course of wrestling, the value and subtlety of psychology, why this story works and how, etc., and I think that made a world of difference.

Lesnar, too, was a quick study. He just plain “got it” and quick, such that, within a year’s time, he was ready to be split off from Heyman when his “agent” double-crossed him in favor of guiding the career of The Big Show (a partnership from which Show benefits to this day, too) and stand alone, to be his own man. Lesnar was strong, agile and competent in the ring, as well as, thanks to Heyman, mentally solid and knew how to work a crowd, either as face or heel. He could have one of the best matches on the card with any variety of opponents, and not have to be led by the hand. His HitC match against The Undertaker remains one of my favorite HitC matches of the last decade when The Cell debuted. It’s truly a shame the travel and (reportedly) his own ego overwhelmed him, because I steadfastly believe he could, today, be that household name WWE so needs at this point in the company’s evolution.

Many want to criticize and belittle Lesnar for having abandoned the business after having shot him to the moon and devoting so much time on air and off to making him live up to his “Next Big Thing” moniker, to make fans know and believe that it wasn’t simply a marketing tool, it was the God’s honest truth, and I say, people are entitled to their beliefs and feelings. However, I liken it to the caprice of youth and the belief that Yeah, I can handle this, even though, once in the thick of the situation, one can discover that, quite frankly, NO I CAN’T. One assumes that someone looking at the travel itinerary for a year’s worth of business in WWE’s regard could conceive of that for which one is volunteering, but it strikes me as a case of both letting the zeros think for you and figuring that, being on top so young, all the compensation would be benefit enough. Sadly, sometimes, once we get into the thick of the situation, we find we’ve bitten off more than we can chew. Lesnar was lucky enough to have had the resources to get himself out the situation he discovered too late was ill-suited to him. Bobby Lashley is a similar such case, although there are differences.

I feel badly over my opinion of Bobby Lashley, because I feel like a hypocrite myself when considering him. I mean, if I my career path took me through downtown Discriminationville, I’d bail out and find a new line of work (or at least a more enlightened company), too, because I don’t play that shit, so I admire him having done so; however, for as sanitized and kid-friendly as WWE has become in the new century, it’s STILL old school pro rasslin behind the curtain…what was he expecting?

Lashley, too, was, to me, another case of having had a handpicked newcomer shoved down my throat and I didn’t appreciate it, especially when I never saw anything from Lashley that impressed me, moreover convinced me that he deserved all the verbal fellatio that was slathered all over him. He had an intimidating physique, sure, and, as such, was quite strong, but, for all of his impressive amateur credentials, I never felt he learned to apply them with much effect in the ring, and, IF that would have come together with time, then he should have remained in development until it did, as should all of these noobs who manage to assemble their rest-hold/dropkick/top rope crossbody developmental offense, get brought up with this bright-eyed Stewart-from-MadTV “Look what I can do!” attitude and then flounder until something clicks, which is exactly where Cena and Orton found themselves when they debuted within two weeks of one another on SmackDown!. Eventually, of course, Orton found himself in EVOLUTION and Cena, it could be said, went directly under the wing of Vince himself.

However, Lashley, too, shall we say, was not a friend of the microphone. First of all, he sounds like Diana Ross. That little pussycat voice coming out of that hulking body was a comedy act in and of itself, aside from the fact that he cut a lousy promo, but, again, that CAN be learned with time and dedication. However, again, if a performer is going to be shot to the moon, he needs to know how to talk and IF Lashley could have learned how to speak in an effective manner, he should have been kept out until he learned, OR, as I lamented for MONTHS in The R’s, Lashley should have been paired up with Ron Simmons. How much instant credibility would it have lent Lashley to have the first African-American world champion in his corner? Simmons cuts a great promo and the two would have looked great together. Meanwhile, behind the scenes, Simmons could have worked with the rookie to help him improve his own verbal skills, PLUS, that quality of mentoring might have proved to have been extremely valuable to Lashley and the manner in which he handled the discrimination over which he claims to have left the business. I mean, really, what do you call a white guy who tosses around the “N” word in the presence of Ron Simmons? Answer, a dead honky.

Now we see the newest crop of developmental graduates and what have we got? Evan Bourne, Bam Neely, Ricky Ortiz, Gavin Spears, Jack Swagger, Kofi Kingston, Dolph Ziggler, Ryan Braddock, Scotty Goldman and Ezekiel Jackson. Now who’s really making a splash of those ten? Bourne, who’s been paired up with Rey Mysterio, Kingston, who’s been tagging with CM Punk and Zeke as THE Brian Kendrick’s bodyguard. Now, Neely has been shadowing Chavo Guerrero for months, but seems to have learned diddlysquat, the one snag in my argument, but I’ll maintain that sometimes, you can’t polish a turd. The rest, though, are sadly generic, with the possible exceptions of Ortiz, who has great charisma but is absolute yawnsville in the ring, and Swagger, who actually has a GIMMICK off of which to play. Spears, Braddock and Goldman could benefit vastly from some form of mentoring, either on-screen or on, to help them discover that little extra something, that uniqueness they have to have to remain in this business that all young talents who go on to succeed discover within themselves and make their trademark.

However, I’ve also heard that Creative brass are not very high on some of these developmental mainstays who appear to be ready to step into a greater role. My question is, if that’s the case, why were they brought up in the first place?

Cultivating a new generation of tomorrow’s superstars is difficult business, to be certain, but, as has been said here and many other places before, there’s no excuse, really, for anything but a stellar product to be coming from WWE at present, considering the wealth of talent under its employ. Perhaps with the stacked rosters and the majority of the on-screen performers toeing the Wellness line quite well (Ziggler excluded, and mainly why he wasn’t discussed in greater detail, because he’d managed to shake a few hands before his piss test earned him a vacation), it might behoove WWE to keep some of these kids back in developmental before their upward mobility is damaged beyond repair…?

THE SKY ISN’T FALLING: IN TERMS OF SUPPOSITION
ECW’s current television deal with Sci-Fi network expires next month. As I say in the headline, this is all really supposition, and we’ll delve deeper into supposition as we go here this week, but let me break down the crux of this discussion:

WHAT I UNDERSTAND TO BE FACT: Myriad Sci-Fi purists were horrified that they should find professional wrestling on their network as the basic point of each is very different (which is why we saw characters such as The Extreme Vampire and The Boogeyman make their way to Tuesday nights). However, when ECW started to pull in a solid weekly rating, those at the network itself who felt as if they’d compromised the integrity of their endeavor conceded a bit.

However, unrest grows as ECW, since its inception, has dropped over a full point in the ratings, and, the network’s main proponent for having ECW on Sci-Fi, Bonnie Hammer, is no longer affiliated with the channel, now finding herself on the home of Raw, USA Network. Considering this, is ECW’s time about done?

Now, as I suggest in the headline, I’m not saying ECW is doomed, I’ve no facts to back up this notion. I’ve, curiously, heard nothing one way or the other, whether a deal is on the table and will be signed contentedly by both sides, or if there’s a real chance WWE could be losing its third brand. Again, this is supposition to allow the following exercise…What would we do with ECW’s players should the brand fail to exist into 2009?

The roster is so:

The Boogeyman
Evan Bourne
Tommy Dreamer
Armando Estrada
Finlay (with Hornswoggle)
Chavo Guerrero
Matt Hardy
Mark Henry (with Tony Atlas)
Bam Neely
Ricky Ortiz
Gavin Spears
Jack Swagger

The Miz & John Morrison

ANNOUNCERS: Matt Striker
Todd Grisham

RING ANNOUNCER: Tony Chimmel
GENERAL MANAGER: Theodore Long

First of all, there will be some folks who don’t make it off the sinking ship onto a life raft of another brand.
Much as I love him, Tommy Dreamer, I think, has earned his place as a Road Agent. He, too, could be someone used in a valuable manner as a mentor for the right person, someone with a little more upward mobility out of the box than poor…what was that kid’s name…? Colin Delany or some shit…? I called him Mikey Waltman.

Bam Neely (or, the world’s least ineffective bodyguard) and Ricky Ortiz should be shipped down to developmental. Ortiz should be fine, as he can get the crowd involved in his character (which is the hard part), that is, until he steps in the ring to, you know, wrestle. A little seasoning, the proverbial tightening of the screws, if you will, and we could see a new and improved version by summertime. Neely, though…if you can’t sit under the learning tree of a Guerrero and still be absolutely no better than when you first walked on that stage toward the ring, one has to be dubious, although we can give the kid another chance.

As there are a whole two referees for ECW, we simply send one to each brand.

Our friend Tool Grisham can head back to WWE Studios and host DVDs with the nauseating flair of a Sean Mooney or Todd Pettingill.

I say, too, we use this as an opportunity to finally ditch Justin “I’m growling like Bjork” Roberts. Sorry, Justin, but your style of ring announcing sounds like someone Kizarney might employ on his second-hand midway. It’s been years, you’ve not improved a lick. I’m sure your mom would tell us what a good boy you are, but you’re annoying on almost a Roddy Piper scale.

As far as I’m concerned, after his “at least California got something right” comment last Tuesday with respect to the passing of Proposition 8, Matt Striker‘s bigot ass can be fired in a humiliating public termination and go back to lying to the school board.

SO. Each remaining brand gets six picks/options.

GOING TO RAW:

The Boogeyman would really work well on the circus Raw has become, though, I still maintain, not as an actual, active wrestler, but rather in this sort of side-attraction role which he’s adopted (and, I’ll give myself a Barry Horowitz here, and say that this is the role I suggested for him years ago). He’s actually become a fan-friendly character who gets a solid reaction when he does his one-dimensional little thing, as long as it’s on a limited time basis, such that it stays unpredictable.

Evan Bourne already has a place on Raw as a result of the Raw/ECW talent exchange and it would be foolish to attempt to split up the rub he’s got going with Rey Mysterio. Stay the course, welcome to Monday.

With so much young talent who really need to learn how to come through in a hurry, given their spots (I’m speaking specifically in terms of Cody Rhodes, Ted DiBiase and especially Manu, though time spent with Marella, Ziggler, Knox and Kofi would be absolutely beneficial, too), Finlay‘s experience would prove invaluable to Raw, especially considering programs with JBL or Regal could be a lot of fun! We also know he works quite well with Mysterio and Batista, plus, with Hornswoggle in tow, there’s another something for the kids on the flagship show.

Also, Mark Henry has been built to be a decent enough threat to warrant being that stalwart roadblock over which one must pass on the way up the ladder (although Kane is already on the Rawster, isn’t he…?). Plus, if nothing else, with DLo Brown stuck at a loose end, Henry and Brown could easily be reunited with Tony Atlas as their manager for a tag team that already ha some pretty decent cohesion back in the day; considering they’ve had several years to refine their respective acts, perhaps they could aspire to more than just having Henry tied down by Terri & Jackie while Lawler squeals “Vibrators?” as a match is on-going.

Finally, it makes sense to allow The Miz & John Morrison to remain together, as they’re the best team in WWE and there’s still some mileage on those tires. They’ve worked their asses off to become as good as they are, The Miz, especially has completely flourished even in the face of all those who never gave him a chance, so I say they deserve and have earned a place on Monday nights.

GOING TO SMACKDOWN!:

I say, reunite Umaga with Armando Alejandro Estrada (and yes, bring back that gimmick). Allow the fans a little bit of singsong before the newly returned Samoan Bulldozer is even more dangerous with the sadistic guidance of a man who remains bitter over the rough treatment he received during his ECW tenure, now back with his muscle to make everyone pay!

Chavo Guerrero is the only member of the ECW roster to appear regularly on SD!, anyway, despite the fact that the talent exchange program exists only with Raw. Make it official already.

I’m hesitant to bring Matt Hardy back to SD!, just because the temptation to pair him up with his FINALLY upwardly mobile brother, Jeff, and halt their forward motion, but let’s face it, McMahonagement will do it when they want to do it, split notwithstanding, so we may as well make it easy for them. Besides, it could be really fun to see what could occur once Jeff finally does obtain that WWET and see if Matt handles it well, or decides to turn on his own flesh and blood. With Jim Ross announcing, that could be the most intriguing and emotionally fan-invested sibling program since Bret/Owen.

Gavin Spears and Jack Swagger may as well join Ryan Braddock and Scotty Goldman on SD!. Hopefully, with the old comrades all palling around together, they can brainstorm as they ride together and really come up with some fresh new ideas that would benefit them all. Besides, there’s enough veteran talent on Fridays who could help them improve, if properly fostered.

Finally, welcome home, Tony Chimmel!

Of course, Teddy Long would head to Raw, too, to be the new General Manager. We’ve seen how Mike Adamle’s approach blew up in his face as his attempt to remain neutral fell apart; what a concept to have an actual benevolent and experienced General Manager running Monday nights! Although, would he, too, clash with the vision of Shane and The Vincess…?

Like I said, I’ve no proof whatsoever that ECW is in the remotest amount of trouble, but I saw the possibility as means by which to spice up our bookend programs, so I decided to do a little remodeling. Of course, there’s the notion of what it would mean financially and philosophically if ECW really DOES get thrown off the air and no other network becomes willing to carry it, but we’ll blow up that bridge when and if we come to it.

COMMENTPALOOZA!
Pretty good list of the most hated, but let me offer up two more, with the most positive comment I could make about either was that at least they weren’t on the main event scene:

Buff Bagwell: Talk about vastly overestimating your worth to the business. By every account, Bagwell was a prick both in and out of the ring, and was lazy to boot.

Paul Roma: He used to be a pretty passable wrestler in the WWF, but when he jumped ship, he gave up, and yet they made him part of the most worthless incarnation of the Four Horsemen (and that is saying something considering they had STeve McMichael for a brief run). The only thing of worth he did in WCW was his brief run with Orndorff. Then he is asked to put over Alex Wright, and completely embarasses him on PPV, exposing the business and getting fired in the process. At least Hogan, Piper and others earned their reputation, what did Roma do to justify his ego?
Posted By: Michael L (Guest)

GAH!!! HOW could I forget Bagwell?! What a self-righteous prick. And I can say that with confidence…ask Larry about Bagwell sometime… Thing is, I dug him when he FIRST debuted as the plucky noob fresh out of the Power Plant, tagging with 2 Cold Scorpio. I thought, “Oh, here’s a fellow to watch.” Of course, that became, “Oh, here’s a fellow to watch self-destruct.” Look, when a wrestler’s MOTHER is more entertaining than the wrestler himself, what can be said for the wrestler? I, for one, LOVED Judy Bagwell. She was no Mama Benjamin, but Thea Vidale wasn’t Shelton’s blood, and I’d been a fan of hers long before her brief tenure in WWE. “Shelton! Don’t make me get the belt, Shelton!” GOLD. Shit. Now I have go back and redo the WHOLE GODDAM LIST! Thanks a LOT, Michael! LOL!

I’m currently split on how I feel for having spared myself WCW from ’96 – the end, for the largest part. It was so hatefully bad (you know, like Raw is now) and it depressed me to see so much great talent jumping through idiot hoops, but there’s so much of professional wrestling history that I missed as a result, even if it was bad, such as all this Roma stuff, I feel as if I did myself a disservice in the long run. Therefore, I can’t really speak from an informed point of view, but I’m pleased you shared this with the studio audience, Michael…thanks!

awwww =( I Thought you were going to be listing the most hated wrestlers in terms of Kayfabe. I was waiting to see Classy Freddie Blassie on here. Oh well. Maybe next time.
Posted By: Jamal (Guest)

Really?! I never really had a problem with Blassie! When I first started watching The WWF, he was on his way out as a manager and I disliked him because he was great at making me hate him, but just as he was about to leave, he appeared to be having so much fun being the dickweed and he and Gene Okerlund were so obviously having a blast, I found a soft spot in my heart for the old codger. I truly was sad when he passed. I imagine there’s some mighty backstage/road shenanigans of which I know nothing, as is the case with everyone from his era to which I am ignorant, but, as it stands, I respect the originator of the Pencil-Necked Geek.

yep, as long tna keeps playing their cards right with this MEM vs Originals feud they should be quite fine. That remains to be seen though as they have messed up on alot of good things but they’ve done good so far and hopefully they continue to do so.

I can’t blame ya for putting hogan at #1. My most hated hogan moment was when he said that wwe was hurting for main-eventers and he should be the one to face flair at this past WM. Dude just wanted to be the one that said he ended flair’s career.
Posted By: cj (Guest)

Seriously, CJ, I hit my knees and pray to the great booker in the sky that TNA refrains from fucking up this program, because SO MUCH GOOD stands to come of it if they keep it copacetic and, moreover, keep Russo on a short leash. I can’t prove it, it’s just a hunch, and I’m most likely wrong, but I have a feeling Jarrett’s increased presence in the company, now that he’s back from his bereavement period has him in a more hands-on role where Creative is concerned. Russo is NOT all bad. He gets too much credit for the success of The Attitude Years in The WWF, because Los Vinces were balancing one another’s short-comings while combining their best efforts to create a truly exciting and superior product. If Jarrett can play the role of Vince McMahon in TNA, plus taking idea submissions from brilliant minds under the company’s employ like Jim Cornette and Mick Foley and work them into one dynamic, consistent product, we could really see something special occur.

It’s great to hear you echo my sentiments on Hogan, too. Really, there’s just so many reasons to hate that guy, I just kept it basic, but there’s myriad specific instances and situations, just such as the one you brought up with respect to WrestleMania 24 and you are absolutely bang on. Now, I’m all about the Flair love, but let’s be pragmatic…what would have been the better match, Flair/HBK or Flair/Hogan, aside from the fact that we got how many MONTHS of storyline following WM as a result of that one match, whereas Hogan would have bailed afterward to go cash his check.

I can see where you’re coming from when you say Lita was sloppy. In my opinion, however, it was more a case of the other women not being able to keep up with her. Before anyone begins to rip me apart for that, I point you to her main event match against Trish on Raw. Lita went for a suicide dive, and Trish took the bump before Lita even cleared the ring, causing Lita to crash head first into the fucking floor. This was her first big match after coming back from a broken neck, and Trish almost killed her. I still find it unbelievable that she finished the match. So, please, explain to me how you can call Lita careless and sloppy, and Trish the greatest of all time. I don’t remeber Bret ever letting Shawn Michaels fall head first into the concrete floor.
Posted By: Muad’dib (Guest)

I think we’re gonna have to agree to disagree on this one, Muad’dib, although I’d be quite willing to Netflix the PPV containing the match in question…can you please tell me which one it was? I’m catching up on all the PPVs I’ve missed and I know I just saw that match for the first time a couple months ago. Your earnest comment has encouraged me to look at that contest with a more critical eye, and not just that of a fan following the story…and rooting for Trish…LOL.

PLEASE… IF IT WASNT FOR HULK HOGAN, THE WWE WOULDNT BE HERE NOW. THERE WOULD BE NO ROCK, AUSTIN OR CENA. HE MADE THE BUSINESS WHAT IT IS. GET OVER IT. HE COULD SHOW UP NEXT WEEK ON RAW AND BLOW EVERY OTHER WRESTLER AWAY. JUST THE TRUTH!!
Posted By: rick goodwin (Guest)

To rick goodwin- There’s no denying the influence that Hogan has had on wrestling BUT he just wasn’t the most likeable person.

By the way………..GO OBAMA!, If ya smell what Barack is cooking
Posted By: cj (Guest)

I grow to like this CJ.

Rick, I appreciate your fandom and, as CJ said, yes, Hogan was instrumental in helping to put the “World” in World Wrestling Federation, but to suggest that WWE wouldn’t be in existence without him is as childish a notion as is leaving a comment in all caps. With this line of thought, you’re opening the door to a whole “What if…” conversation that leads us into questions of “destiny” or “preordination” that none of us are qualified to take part in much less lead. For the record, though, had it not been for Hogan, I’ll assert that Vince was so driven and, then, so completely in touch that he’d have managed to assemble a roster of dynamic talent and provide fans with a product that would have more than satisfied their “sports entertainment sweet tooth”; I’ll grant you that there would likely have not been anyone else to have risen to Hogan status, but, considering into what his fame, power and wealth turned him (as well as Vince, but that’s a whole different discussion), maybe that wouldn’t have been a bad thing. It certainly would have allowed for other top stars to have had a much bigger slice of a slightly smaller pie. We can weigh the pros and cons of that possibility forever.

And the only way Hogan would blow away every other wrestler on Raw this week is if he hit his arthritic knees, took out his teeth and told the roster queue up.

Regarding the Hogan’s-one-program thing, Geoff, I’ve gotta put forth just a little opposition to your point of view. Although I never liked Hogan, even as a child, the guy had such a dynamic personality that it was hard to ignore him. He sold tickets that way, and here’s where I oppose you: You’re talking about an entirely different era of professional wrestling. In the mid-80s, wrestling was changing a great deal, but their primary financial gains still came from selling out arenas. They didn’t have any episodic television like Raw, no payperviews until later on, and even then it was just four per year, and certainly no video games. Tickets were sold much more aggressively (and shamelessly) then, because that was their payday. And once you find a program that sells that many tickets, you’re going to stick with that formula, in this case LONG after it’s gone stale, because again, it’s your payday. It wasn’t broke, so they didn’t fix it. As a result, Hogan ruled over the WWF with an iron leg-drop until well into the 90s, until people FINALLY stopped giving a shit… well, except for the senseless few remaining Hulkamaniacs, but let’s call them what they really are: Canadians.
Posted By: KanyonKreist (Registered)

I peed myself laughing at that last bit, Kanyon! Expect a bill in the mail to replace the Calvins and the Guess? jeans I ruined as a result…LOL.

Look, I don’t want to be nit-picky and this response is going to be just that in a sense, but, in another, it’s kinda the crux of my argument, but Hogan was NOT a dynamic personality, he was a one-dimensional hero and a one-note in-ring performer the vast majority of fans simply could not see often enough. I only wish Hogan had been more dynamic because it would have lent more creativity to his programs. Dynamism does not equate to charisma, which is what Hogan had in spades. You’re right, Hogan couldn’t be ignored because he was EVERYWHERE. Even when Savage won his first HWT, there was Hogan in the ring taking credit for his victory, under the indignant, pseudo-innocent auspices of, “What? I was only watching his back…”

You’re absolutely right in your analysis of the manner in which The WWF made its money back in the day. They didn’t have as eclectic a number of money-making options such as a monthly PPV, On-Demand or Mobile services, compilation DVDs, licensing, film and television appearances, etc. to keep the coffers full; it was all live events, seasonal PPVs and merchandising, so, yes, it behooved them to make their live product as financially attractive as possible, which, I feel, strengthens my suggestion to run double main-events where The Hulkster would uphold the honor of Hulkamania and slays the giant in addition to a separate HWT match. It seems to me that allows for the Maniacs to get their fix, plus other stars to become bigger stars by being champion. And nothing says Hogan would be disallowed from competing for and winning the belt again, he just wouldn’t have a stranglehold on it.

BTW, the “iron leg-drop” comment was awesome!

Come on man, CENA is just like Hogan. The only difference is Hogan was WAY more popular.
Posted By: mr. HALLIDAY (Guest)

Cena is not like Hogan. Hogan used his power to hold back other people. If anyone’s like Hogan, it’s Triple H.
Posted By: Guest#3082 (Guest)

Mr. HALLIDAY, I’m not going to debate Hogan’s popularity over Cena’s…I couldn’t! However, I’ll grant you that he’s being BOOKED to be just like Hogan, and I think that’s another piece of the puzzle with respect to why he earns the negative response we hear whenever he steps foot in an arena. I don’t think people buy the Superman booking anymore. Vince tried to book Cena like Hogan with that extended title run and I think people just got tired of it and stopped caring. Again, Vince and his outdated booking.

Likewise, I take issue with as well as support portions of 3082‘s comment, too. I agree that Cena is NOT like Hogan, but I don’t know that Hogan ever purposefully held other people down; rather I think his selfish ass was so concerned about his spot and holding hostage the belt, that he didn’t give anyone else a thought. He wanted to be #1 (and had a certain right to feel that way since he was the unequivocal top draw), he wanted the belt and so keeping others away from it was mere consequence.

Of course, The Hulkamaniac could come back with the argument that Hogan didn’t hold down people, in fact, he HELPS others…look at Ed Leslie, look at The Honky-Tonk Man, look at THE NASTY BOYS. Uh-huh. Look at them. Four subordinate pieces of shit who help to serve as a protective wall that allows him to be king, because they know as long as Hogan is working, he’ll bring them along. This is the equivalent of the sort-of pretty girl with self-confidence issues who hangs out with uglier and fatter girls than she is to make herself feel better.

Wow – strong words this week! All I’ll say about Hogan is that, in the 80’s, I did put him on the level of like Superman – work hard, train hard, say your prayers, eat your vitamins, etc. So he was like the big yellow and red boy scout, right? I was never a big big fan of ol’ Supes, but as a comics enthusiast, realized that we were always going to have the Last Son of Krypton on the landscape and felt the same went for Hogan on the wrestling front. What I always had a problem with is that the guy had heelish tendencies which I found confusing at the times. I mean this is the guy that was built up to be the ultimate do-gooder but cheated like a mutha on any given occasion. Even for my young, impressionable and markish mind, that was too much of a stretch that I just couldn’t get behind.
Posted By: JMAC (Guest)

Yellow and red boy scout? Maybe a Weblo…seriously, though, I do appreciate the fact that Hogan had a positive message to pass along to his disciples; if a parallel can be drawn between Hogan and Cena, it’s just that, except that Cena leads by example, as opposed to Hogan’s do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do, which takes us back to one of my main problems with Bret Hart, in that, as Shakespeare wrote, “Heavy is the head that wears the crown”, in that, when one places one’s self on such a high pedestal, especially in such a hero capacity, one has a much greater obligation to behave as such, 100%, 24/7 and we see that few are really worthy of carrying that much weight on their back. This is my belief and it’s likely going to be unpopular, but I think Cena does that well. He appears to toe the hero line with dignity, grace and humility and I appreciate that, especially since the majority of his fan base are children…and chicks who wanna fuck him.

Would it surprise you, JMAC, as a fellow former comic enthusiast, that I couldn’t stand Superman, either? There were just some heroes who seemed not to have no limits placed upon them, which damaged my willing suspension of disbelief, such as Superman, Dr. Strange, Batman (to the end that he was just a normal guy with an apparent gadget in that little belt for EVERY occasion, and I mean, pre-Frank Miller Batman) and, predictably, The Incredible Hulk. I guess I was a huffy little stick in the mud even when I was 8 years old.

Again, we see another grievance with Hogan, a different facet of his do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do in that he gave Flair a run for that Dirtiest Player in the Game moniker. Hypocrite son of a bitch. Yeah, take your vitamins and drink your milk so you can grow up big and strong, abuse steroids and cheat your ass off. Great role model, there.

I was overjoyed when The Undertaker (granted, with Paul Bearer and Ric Flair’s help) took the HWT from Hogan…and was double pissed when they CREATED a special PPV just so Hogan could have a shot to get it back! Now, granted, yes, this was all a set up so Hogan, who felt, because someone else cheated the way he did to take his title off of him, had a blank check to cheat his ass off to regain it, would actually get caught and have the title held up so that Flair could win the Rumble to become champion, but it’s the principle that no one batted an EYE when this PPV was created to be “Fair to Hogan”.

Of course, Valentine didn’t mind working with those two. He was blasted out of his mind on coke every night.

Good column. Add Sean Waltman to the list.
Posted By: Owen Can’t Fly (Guest)

I absolutely busted out laughing when I read that! It explains why it took him so long to get warmed up, and, once got there, couldn’t stop. And we’re gonna have to agree to disagree on Waltman…sorry!

with regard to piper and the psychology thing, i think thats just about spot on.

thats why i’ve had trouble really accepting mr kennedy as a worker. i mean sure he’s got the psychology thing down, but he doesn’t really do anything distinct. what can he bring to the table that any other worker can’t.

and i’m so glad you mentioned kurt angle as the antithesis of bret hart. kurts exactly the kind of heel that i love. he doesn’t just wear people down. he’s the kind of heel where just when you think the face is in control, wham he comes out of nowhere with high impact stuff, or the ankle lock – i mean that guy can counter just about anything into the ankle lock.

it works doublely for me because not only does it take your breath away, it leaves you miffed that he’s just pulled the rug from under your favourite face.
Posted By: DaJ (Guest)

Thanks, DaJ! Believe me, I’d much rather be able to gush about how much I love the old WWF guard and what fantastic memories I have of this time period, but there was so much to hate as far as I was concerned, and that’s one of several things that bugs me about Vince’s product when he decides to market to kids, but that’s a whole different conversation.

You bring up an interesting point in Kennedy’s regard. Kennedy, to me, at least, has the psychology thing down so well, that it’s not just a mental thing, it translates to his in-ring performances, as well. His style of performance truly has reminded me of “Stunning” Steve Austin since I first saw him in the ring, the technicality (and a different quality of such than that of Angle or Benoit) and strategy he exhibits displays a level opportunistic intelligence I was quite frankly afraid was a thing of the past. To have discovered that Kennedy idolizes and is in frequent contact with Austin didn’t surprise me a bit and actually encouraged me to give myself a little Barry Horowitz for having spotted it. Altogether, if Kennedy can get himself back on the same track upon which he found himself before the injury costing him the $itB briefcase, I think we could be seeing someone who could be with us for a good, long time, at least I hope so.

This is a nitpick, but I’d suggest Angle is more a fully-actualized Bret rather than his antithesis, but that’s really just semantics…you totally understand my intention, and I’m pleased you agree!

Where’s Jeff Jarrett on the list?
Posted By: shone jones (Guest)

I don’t mind Jarrett as a wrestler at all. I’m not overly fond of him, mind you, and, yes, that whole country singer gimmick was irritating, but it was designed to be such. There’s hating someone because they successfully play a well-conceived gimmick and there’s people like Hogan and Goldberg. I’ve softened a lot, believe it or not, on Piper, because he really WAS doing his job, making me hate him because that was the character, but the manner in which he did it, was so incredibly annoying…and what really clinched it for me is that he went face and didn’t change a goddam thing about himself. Remember that non-match brawl he had with Bad News Brown at WrestleMania 6, or that embarrassing parking lot brawl against Goldust at WrestleMania 12? Painful, just painful in every sense.

Good article.

BUT, everyone seems to keep calling this simply young vs old. When its not.

Its the people who built TNA with their hard work (Meaning Jarrett is a perfect person to represent them, even if hes not “young”)…

vs.

The guys who come over from elsewhere and TAKE CREDIT for that hard work, demanding respect in the process.
Posted By: El Nahamocola (Guest)

Thank you, and you make a hell of a good point and I appreciate the fact that you bring this up! This is an extremely important factor to bear in mind, because it’s the crux of MEM’s motivation, and the mode of reasoning by which MEM justifies its actions. Well done!

Geoff, while I disagree with you about certain names on your “Most Hated” list, props for not including Cena. There is way too much blind hate for him. When it comes to Kerry losing the 2004 election, you’re right about that but there was also the Osama tape the weekend before the election and that doesn’t even include the media kissing Bush’s ass during the contest. I’m actually surprised that Kerry didn’t lose by closer to ten percent. As far as prop. 8 goes, as more older people die out and younger people are added to the voting process, gay people will be able to marry legally whether people against it like it or not. That sounds harsh but seeing as young people support gay people getting married by a 2 to 1 margin, it will happen.
Posted By: The Great Capt. Smooth (Guest)

Obviously, agreed on Cena. So with whom and why did you disagree?

I didn’t want to get into a political analysis of why Kerry lost in a wrestling column, I just wanted to make a point, not that I feel proponents of same-sex marriage are to blame for Kerry’s inability to spare us another four years of W.’s unique brand of “tyranny for freedom”, although you bring up some good points in that regard.

And with respect to Prop H8, you’re absolutely correct there, although the polls showed that, a large reason PH passed was due to a larger-than-normal/projected African-American and Hispanic vote, both cultures being religiously-based, Southern Baptist and Catholic, respectively, who hold fast, whether actually religious or not, to the church’s belief that same-sex unions are invalid and immoral. That’s all I’m going to say about that, because I’m in a dour mood as I write this and we don’t need me going off on this subject in my present state of mind, especially, again, in a wrestling column.

Geoff, sorry if I misinterpreted your previous column. I guess sometimes we just interpret things differently.

I do think that we have different philosophies on wrestling though, as I liked (or at least tolerated) just about everyone on your hated list (even Ed Leslie, although only in his Brutus Beefcake persona). Meanwhile, someone like Greg Valentine bores me. I love his Dog Collar match with Roddy Piper and that submission match he had at the Royal Rumble with Ron Garvin, but that’s about it. I guess I just like babyfaces and characters.

Someone above mentioned Buff Bagwell and I can’t believe I forgot about him. I used to like him before his NWO stint, but after that he just went downhill. Maybe like Scott Steiner he should have just stayed a tag wrestler.
Posted By: JLAJRC (Guest)

You’re absolutely correct, JLAJRC, it’s just that I take pride in being able to clearly express my beliefs, ideas, etc., and so, if I’m misrepresenting myself, I need to take that into a greater forwardly-minded consciousness as I write!

I’m all for differences of opinion…actually, I prefer them in a wrestling capacity because, as with virtually anywhere, diversity offers a much broader overall experience for those involved, be it a wrestling product, the fans in attendance or even life in general. If someone truly loves the Hogan gimmick, I can see it and I respect that, as long as they’re not just blindly marking along if they’re older than the average Rey Mysterio fan, and realize exactly what’s going on there. You can’t help who you like, be it a wrestler or someone you’ve come to know at work or wherever…something catches our eye and it works in our hearts and minds. It’s just the intention of 5SC to analyze that which we like, to figure out why and what works and see if it’s formulaic, thus requiring the charisma and uniqueness of the talent to really make the character come to life, or is it something that’s just a guilty pleasure, with which, of course, there’s nothing wrong? I’m simply attempting to place a higher intellectual quotient upon who and what I like and why.

No empirical rights and wrongs here, friends…although good-natured ribbing…that’s another story.

As I was reading, I was agreeing a lot with most everything, then i saw the word “Roast”…..I also saw “Hulk Hogan”…..so it got me thinking…..”The Comedy Central Roast of Hulk Hogan”!!! I’d PAY to see that!
Posted By: Steve (Guest)

I know I’d pay money to see what Lisa Lampanelli and Jeffrey Ross would have to say about Hogan. I can just hear the ignorant cocktail waitress in the audience now…”I’m sorry, Mr. Hall, but there’s a two-drink minimum.”

Calling Bret Vs DEL the worst PPV title match of the last 20 years is just a tad ludicrous in my opinion. Just because no one gave The Patriot an ice creams’ chance at Visceras house of winning, they still did their best to put on a solid match. BatistaVJBL bash ’05, JerichoVAustin from NWO ’02, or almost any HHH title match from ’03 were more bland and painful to the eye then Bret/Del. Shit, I don’t even think it was the worst PPV title match that YEAR as HBK/Kenny was pretty damn uninspired (and I too, am prolly more of a Shawn mark then one for Bret). Also, if you think Brets’ last great match was WM13(sans Beniot) I gotta ask; what about Bret/Flair from Souled Out ’98? That match was an unheralded gem on an unheralded gem of a show, and not just one of Brets’ last great matches but really Flairs’ too.
Posted By: SMYK (Guest)

You know, I have to look back and take stock and agree, SMYK. I disagree with you about HBK/Shamrock, as I thought the match itself was damn entertaining and gave the not-quite-won-over-to-dX fans something to cheer for, as Shamrock came quite close to taking the belt on a couple occasions through the course of the match; if there’s a complaint to be had about that contest, it was that we got the same bullshit, lazy-booking DQ finish we’d already had on Raw a few weeks earlier when HHH & Chyna interfered on HBK’s behalf to save the belt, especially on a PPV named FOR degeneration-X. Clearly, this was just a hold-over till the casket match the next month at ROYAL RUMBLE where HBK would solidify his trilogy of wins over The Undertaker before moving on to WrestleMania where The Austin Era would begin.

Also notable sub-par main events of the last 20 years: HBK vs. Daveyboy Smith at ITH:BEWARE OF DOG (although, in their defense, they rebounded and had a bang up return match the following month at KOTR), Bret defending against Smith (Can’t recall at which PPV this occurred, but the only that really saved it was that Smith bled like a pig…those expecting Wembly 2 were sadly disappointed) and HHH defending against Scott Steiner in that stinker of a suplex-fest. We’ll have to agree to disagree about Austin/Jericho, though.

As for Bret/Flair at SOULED OUT ’98, after having been fish hooked into buying that snooze fest in ’97, I had no time for it, or any other subsequent WCW PPV thereafter, so I’ll take your word for it, as I want to believe that, after all the hoo-hah surrounding their matches during Flair’s trip to the circus, I want to think they COULD put on a superior match, and will certainly not object to the possibility.

Now for a little call-&-response with thegun:

Brian Pillman – Cryin Brian is forever the poster child of heartless prick that really didn’t grasp the profession. He was pushed as a singles threat when he clearly wasn’t. He had a great dropkick but so did…

Wow, all this time, I had no idea you hated Pillman! And all the fights we’ve had, this never came up…LOL! Pillman was always the victim of wrong timing, I feel. I’ll always stand up for THE HOLLYWOOD BLONDS and lobby they were split up too soon by a booking committee that didn’t want to see them succeed, a clear case of the fans choosing what they like and Creative taking a shit on it because those with the book were pissed they didn’t see that star power implicit in its own throw-away creation. Pillman would have benefitted greatly from having remained in a solid tag with a partner like Austin for a good while longer. THEN, had he not been injured in that car accident that left his ankle permanently fused in one position, along with the selfish, anarchist character he’d cultivated in the interim, he could have been a huge star in The Attitude Era. I don’t think I quite buy that he never grasped the business, because it was all of his nuances that lent THE BLONDS so much cohesion and was key in getting them over.

Greg Gagne – Verne’s son who was booked in an endless series of matches with Kurt Hennig (my favorite AWA spelling) which is just painful for my eyes to look back on Hennig begging Gagne off in the corner b/c that reminds me off…

Ah, yes, bless Greg. The Julian Lennon of wrestling.

Roddy Piper – If you want to know why stuff is scripted now, it is b/c of this tool. Piper had 2 qualities in life. He was either brilliant on the mic or he was incoherent, no middle ground. He wasn’t bland on the mic like he was in the ring sort of like…

I suppose it was part of his…ugh…charm, that giving him a live mic was the equivalent of handing him a stick of dynamite. One thing I did want to bring up but finally refrained in the end was his little speech in TNA about Vince Russo killing Owen Hart. That pretty much sealed it for me right there, as that’s a disgusting claim. I can his, dare I use the term in his regard, logic, but to single out Russo for this tragic accident was awful and wrong. It smelled more to me that he was trying to use a hot-button topic to get heat for himself…wasn’t he pushing a book at that time…? Loathsome.

I’ve already shot my Cena wad.

Mick Foley – Always never quite got the love for fatassed Mick. When Vader powerbombed him on the cement and a program launched regarding Mick’s “whereabouts”, I was hoping that they never found him. Just so you know, I have met Mick twice and even had dinner at the same table and talked wrazzlin with him at Disney about 9 years ago. Mick doesn’t talk much, he sorta…grumbles without an audience. He needs the fuel of a studio audience which leads me to…

Obviously I’m jealous, but I can see your point. Foley really strikes me as someone who, for all his thoughtful brilliance, has simply never really gotten the hang of simple social graces, as he himself admits that he was never, shall we say, properly socialized in his formative years. He still strikes me as being the shy, unaccepted kid who grew up to be a larger version of the same, his fame, respect and prosperity notwithstanding.

Too, I’ve typed my fingers bloody over Bret.

Billy Gunn – He might be the most overbooked midcarder in history. If his match is over 6 minutes, then you need to get him a tank of air. Bookers who continue to look for angles for this prick should be beaten!

Yeah, had Vince not had such a hard-on for Kippity-Doo-Dah all those years, every announcer referring to him as “The best pure athlete in The WWF/E”, I don’t think his stock would have been so high as to command a place in TNA. I think The Rock’s (HILARIOUS) promo where he prays to God pretty well sealed the deal on Kip’s usefulness, because he was just SO humiliated by The Rock…because Rocky was RIGHT! It was like this collective, “Thank GOD, SOMEone finally said it!”

The list of Wrestlers you hate was good, but what about a list of guys you really liked that never quite did anything.

A few of mine are.

Kanyon – I remember when Mortis was first introduced and I loved it. I liked the angle where he went against Wrath. He did new moves(they seemed new to me) and he had a sweet ass mask. Then he unmasked and became the extremely bland Kanyon, but he still had good to great matches.

Scotty Riggs – I think I really liked this guy because of his program with Raven. I thought it was great and always looked forward to him breaking out and becoming something…never happened. I did meet him though at a local indy show here in Carolina del sur.

Mike Awesome – When I got my first job and delved into the realm of video tapes I found some real gems, like FMW. Where Mike Awesome kicked everyone’s ass. I thought he was such a bad mofo and when I heard he was wrestling in the states I quickly found my new addiction, ECW. Not too long after that WCW made him a joke WWE didn’t know what to do with him and he died…but he certainly lived up to his surname in FMW and ECW.
Posted By: Carnivore (Guest)

I just may well do this somewhere down the line, just not this week…good idea, though!

Kanyon never did a damn thing for me, although, again, this was the period in WCW history where you’d have had to pay me a hefty to sum to make me go through it. I always thought Mortis was a sad Kane rip-off, as was most of what was going on in WCW at the time, sad WWF clones.

The only match I ever dug with Riggs was the one here in LA during the dying days of ECW when Rob Van Dam got revenge on him for having turned on him in his first match back from rehabbing the broken shin that forced him to vacate the TVT. Never really saw too much him myself.

You make a better case with Awesome, except that, in the US, I never saw him have a good match with anyone after ECW folded. His series with Masato Tanaka was ferocious and I recall a great match against Spike Dudley, where it appeared as if The Runt of the Litter might actually go over! He made no friends doing ECW the way he did in jumping to WCW, and I think that was the beginning of the end for him, a certain amount of guilt for which he never got over…who knows? There was also the dichotomy over that which qualified as a giant in ECW as opposed to WCW/The WWF/E. He was actually just “big” in the latter franchises, which caused a bit of a quandary with Creative, because Awesome was a draw because of his relative size, but against The Undertaker, or even those losers in KRONIK, he looked average. Awesome’s is a sad story of potential gone unfulfilled.

9500 word of nonsense is enough for this week, I think. Thanks for stopping by…see ya next week.

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Geoff Eubanks

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